Fuck Sexism

[Lord J Esq]

The best thing a writer can do to defeat sexism is not to worry about "tropes" and just write compelling stories free of sexism.

[Syna]

I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to think in terms of tropes, but doing so can be a legitimate tactic for any writer, and an awareness of them can help you avoid bad characterization, as well as understand how to characterize compellingly. For instance, when I was learning how to teach creative writing, referring to tropes was one of the more effective methods I found-- many students didn't understand was wrong with their flat, hackneyed characters until they understood how cliche works, and how subversion of cliche works, and how tropes are utilized well and badly.  

And some storytellers are simply more archetypally minded than others; when I create characters, it's always with archetypes as inspiration.

[tushantin]

One thing I've actually found incredibly useful is to help give characters contrasting attributes to their own personality. For instance, if a character in immensely brutal and violent, it helps to give him fondness towards flowers or poetry to explore "hidden" areas that many wouldn't have known about, not even you. This also puts a new turn in storylines.

Another thing I've found that, contrary to what most writers say, restraining yourself actually gives you an incredibl boost in creativity.

[FaustWolf]

Aren't I allowed to have a weak female character once in a while, along with the weak male ones? And just as many strong male characters as female ones?

I think that's all we can ask for! Would that there were more works as balanced as yours. Keep up the good work. If I'm remembering right you're going into the videogame industry, and I look forward to seeing the projects you're involved in down the road.


As for the questions at hand, Thought and Syna summed up my own opinions already. I think it's difficult to take a single artist - let's go with Hyung Tae Kim and Bomi for sake of argument - and harangue him or her for promoting certain stereotypes. If an artist has something for breasts, or giant codpieces for that matter, I think it's kind of his or her own thing. Letting that happen every once in a while is part of freedom of expression IMO.

The problem I see is one of the aggregate. It's when there's a scantily clad or distressed-oh-somebody-save-me woman everywhere you turn that something becomes worthy of critique, and extremely worthy of fighting. I think we're getting better at it, slowly but surely. When I search female knight on Google nowadays, I at least have to scroll down somewhat before the completely nonsensical things overtake the more sensible depictions. There are enough examples to celebrate that a blog has even arisen for the purpose! This is nowhere near where we need to be, but I think a better balance is definitely within reach.

However, my positive outlook on this could very well be the result of an insulation I've subjected myself to for a while, and where RD's comment in the Quotes thread was concerned, my limited experience in sections of the videogame industry dominated by large corporations. I have so little time to really sit back and consume media nowadays that I've made a hard rubric like Syna has: if a work features a stereotype like a bunch of scantily clad or hapless women, it probably isn't worth my time more generally. I've bowed out of experiences like World of Warcraft and Dead or Alive on account of this, but when things like Ravenmark: Scourge of Estellion and Serei no Moribito await me on the other side of the equation, I can't say I've chosen poorly. It certainly isn't a rule that all good artists/game designers/etc. are drawn away from stereotypes, but over the years I feel I've seen a correlation over all. A certain creativity is needed to do something that's off the beaten path, and that level of creativity often flows into other aspects of the work.

[tushantin]

A certain creativity is needed to do something that's off the beaten path, and that level of creativity often flows into other aspects of the work.

Then here's a provoking question: If a certain fiction requires the use of scantily-clad women what justifiable purpose does it play within the context of the story?

[FaustWolf]

If I'm understanding correctly what you're asking tushantin, I think that would fall under what Syna called using the trope "in a clever and self-aware fashion." There's always plenty of room for that; it could result in a discussion of the meaning that clothing has in the character's culture, etc., etc. And that's useful. This is the difference between a character wearing barely anything because it's hot, or because there's some kind of skimpfest ceremony going on, and the character wearing barely anything because the character is female. That gets to the root of the issue, I think. Too many pieces of media do the latter.

[Syna]

Faust puts it very well, though I would add: don't kid yourself. A scantily-clad woman is still a scantily-clad woman, whatever plot-related reasons may be involved. Be careful and clever about it.

An easy fix is equal-opportunity fanservice-- take care to make the males attractive to various people who are attracted to men. Scantily-clad women seem less of a predatory phenomenon when everyone is being catered to. That way whatever issues you run into are more likely to be ones of taste, not of sexism. XD

[tushantin]

Faust puts it very well, though I would add: don't kid yourself. A scantily-clad woman is still a scantily-clad woman, whatever plot-related reasons may be involved. Be careful and clever about it.

In case you never figured, it was a test statement. If someone feels the need to portray scantily-clad women, does it play any purpose? It wouldn't even be worth it just for the sake of having it (unless the media is being targetted towards teen boys, which is... kinda horrid). It's the question I always ask myself while writing: what's the purpose of the element in the story? Why a vase and not a clock? Why burgers and not hotdogs? Why Libra but not Virgo? Why a dagger and not a rod? These questions help you analyze the plot abstractly and help rid of any "author's bias" temporarily which helps see things from another perspective. These are also essential for good mystery / thriller writing. XD

In this case, scantily-clad women, sexism or not, wouldn't even be an effective element in the story unless there's some explanation to it (and a pretty good explanation at that). Unless the situation is about beach parties, communal baths, etc. where even scantily-clad men are found everywhere, there's simply no reason to have it.

Then again, the topic may split here to "what do you mean by scantily-clad". Is it clothes altogether or just the armor?

If it's the latter, that complicates things further because 99% of the population are usually civilians and don't have armors. So if a woman is injured in warfare and doesn't have armor that does not mean the author was biased against her -- she's just a civilian, like many other men who died right there.

An easy fix is equal-opportunity fanservice-- take care to make the males attractive to various people who are attracted to men.

Unfortunately, I can't do that. I'm not attracted to men. XD

That reminds me. When I went broke once I offered to write a story for a magazine. The short story was actually an excerpt scene from a novel I had "planned" but had no intention of writing. While sexism wasn't central to the story it did play an important plot-point, and I took the opportunity to do something I wouldn't have normally done: I included scantily-clad women. Only this time, the element had a purpose in the plot.

At first I was worried, but with the response I received upon the publication of my article renewed my faith in humanity.

[Katie Skyye]

An easy fix is equal-opportunity fanservice-- take care to make the males attractive to various people who are attracted to men.

You mean like this guy?



Why do both his jacket AND shirt do that? It's prolly fanservice.

I mainly asked the question because I want to get into Video Game character design, which demands that you SEE the character model. Unlike a book or other written story, where a detailed description of clothing may be irrelevant, well...
...yeah, it's slightly more relevant!

But anyway, that's all answered my question. Seeya!

[ZeaLitY]

Fuck http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrl-mm-7WM8

Ooh, first the kid shows that he works at manual labor with a distinctly all-male crew (and one techno-dinosaur). Then the kid takes the truck over to a stereotypically feminine doll (colored pink, of course, and standing next to a pink My Little Pony) who has no idea how to haul her own goods and needs Captain Truckfucker to roll up in his gas-guzzling shithound and do it for her. Fast forward and the kid rolls up to the dollhouse representing "home", and who is his wife, but none other than Lara Croft? The camera hilariously focuses on her bare stomach and large breasts. Then the man-sized version of this asshole comes home, whereupon the kid runs right up to him (past his mom) and loses his shit. (Not shown in this version of the commercial; there's an alternate floating around somewhere that I saw on TV earlier.)

It's all the subtle things. There's rape; there's domestic violence; and then there's all the insidious little, subtle, psychological images that reinforce traditional roles. Right here, it's the woman being helpless to do physical work or being a hot piece of ass who stays home all day while the man is out braving the dangers of hauling heavy shit around. Pathetic. This kid's almost guaranteed to be a future Republican vote.

[FaustWolf]

Meme, I dub thee "Silverado Boy."

But really, the underlying image couldn't be more appropriate for the discussion at hand, could it? It neatly sums up so much of what we've been talking about.

[tushantin]

In the child's defense (but not the director's), I'd like to add something:

1) "Boy plays with girl dolls for the first time."

2) "Immediately shoves them into traditional gender roles."

3) Me: "Based on what he has observed."

For one thing, the child isn't to blame solely on this occasion. Monkey see, monkey do. As children, we are quite likely to follow the world based on observation, and when we see blocks moving on wheels we simply take that information for granted. The same goes for his perception of womanhood and traditional gender roles (which brings an interesting point in mind...).

[FaustWolf]

As children, we are quite likely to follow the world based on observation, and when we see blocks moving on wheels we simply take that information for granted. The same goes for his perception of womanhood and traditional gender roles...

I agree, and that's a big part of why I feel art can be a key vehicle for change. Honestly, I'm not sure how I would have turned out had I not been exposed to pieces of media like this and this, and this and this, at critical moments of early development. That violence has to be tied with power in American culture is problematic in and of itself, but against the backdrop of other media in the early 1990s, it was the gender mix that stood out. I wouldn't have gotten that message at home were it not for these game developers feeding my braaaiins.

One could extrapolate that the earlier the progressive media influence (or parental example for that matter) reaches the child, the more effective the change will be. Now I'm curious as to how modern children's cartoons compare to the ones we all watched as kids.

[Katie Skyye]

My mom went to sea for a living on a merchant marine ship right after college, and at the time was one of about 12 American women total to do so. She only stopped so she could spend more time with me and actually have a part in raising me. She is the BIGGEST influence on me because when I was seven she divorced my dad and I spent most of my time with her. When I was nine my grandpa died, effectively leaving me with no male relatives.
So I suppose I grew up with some interesting notions about gender roles--namely, that I didn't realize there were any. Sexism was a crazy foreign concept that for a long time I assumed didn't exist anymore because I'd never really been exposed to it or seen it happening in a way that I understood. I wasn't taught gender roles--I figured anyone could be as girly or as manly as they liked.
I didn't play with dolls--they were boring, somehow, because they were human. I had a bunch of beanie and plush cats, and about fifty pounds of plastic dinosaurs that I played with, and when I went through a brief Barbie phase, I had them shooting lasers at each other.
I played a ton of video games, too...and wanted to be a paleontologist.
Hm, I think what it was, was that it didn't matter if you were male of female--you just had to be smart. Smart people could do whatever they wanted to. That was my philosophy, and still is. Of course, I no longer absolutely HATE stupid people, but they're pretty darn low on my respect scale...

Hmm, as of now, I know a bunch of female-to-male transgenders, but it's very confusing for me! They all just look like girls with short haircuts! And I know a few lesbians, but I'm really not sure if they're also transgendered or what...

Basically, there's no way for me to know if someone is just a short-haired girl or a long-haired guy, or if they're transgendered or not...I really don't want to offend anyone by getting it wrong. >n<

[Lord J Esq]

I'm glad to see this thread doing so well. If injustice must linger, then so too must our vitality against it endure. I hope you all continue to spend good energy here, coming to terms with awareness of what sexism is, and giving form to our mutual resolve to end it.