Author Topic: Does Gaspar Age?  (Read 8959 times)

Truthordeal

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 11:39:17 am »
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and conjecture that Nus are probably immortal, given that they lasted 65,002,300 years at least without evolving to adapt to their environment.

But Xenterex does raise a valid point: where did he get his new outfit from? Or is it the same one, just dirtied from being there so long. Unfortunately, due to the limits of the 16-bit graphics, we can't really tell if he looks older at the End of Time or not. He's always had the mustache, so unfortunately can't tell us.


mav

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 01:36:50 pm »
But Xenterex does raise a valid point: where did he get his new outfit from? Or is it the same one, just dirtied from being there so long. Unfortunately, due to the limits of the 16-bit graphics, we can't really tell if he looks older at the End of Time or not. He's always had the mustache, so unfortunately can't tell us.
Well his mustache on the Zeal sprite has more of a blue-gray hue than his EoT mustache, where it's more yellow. Then again, his skin is yellower too, so it could just be the effect of that light he's sitting on...

V_Translanka

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2009, 06:23:05 pm »
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and conjecture that Nus are probably immortal, given that they lasted 65,002,300 years at least without evolving to adapt to their environment.

I believe multiplying asexually usually hinders evolution...If Spekkio IS a Nu, perhaps he is the penultimate (who knows where they could go from there, right?) one that's able to adapt to any environment since his form takes on that of the level of those in his vicinity. I've always wondered what Nu looks like to Gaspar...

GenesisOne

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2009, 08:19:11 pm »
These different points of view and argumentation, IMHO, seem to miss a certain point.

Even if the End of Time is the point of least resistance in the space-time continuum where time is not subject to linear flow, it does not change the fact that: Gaspar is still human.

Humans, like any transient species, is still subject to aging. It's simply the second law of thermodynamics: age is not affected by the flow of time because our cells decay regardless of where or when we are.  At least, that's how I see it.

*      *      *      *      *      *

Now, how about those Nu that are said to be immortal.  Is it possible?

A Nu can be immortal through a process called "transdifferentiation."  Simply put, it's when a non-stem cell transforms into different type of cell, and this process can repeat indefinitely.  The Turritopsis nutricula, a species of jellyfish in real life, is deemed to be "biologically immortal" because it uses this very process to revert its cells its younger "polyp" stage, age again, and repeat ad infinitum.

Perhaps the Nu have mastered this same process and have become biologically immortal in their own right.  Science rules!

V_Translanka

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2009, 01:37:23 am »
Humans, like any transient species, is still subject to aging. It's simply the second law of thermodynamics: age is not affected by the flow of time because our cells decay regardless of where or when we are.

That's something that can't be proved though, right? I mean, how can you say whether or not cell decay would or wouldn't be hampered by the absence of temporal forces? Over time, all matter decays (relatively speaking, I think there's some rare radioactive isotopes that defy this).

idioticidioms

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2009, 02:07:06 pm »
I don't think Spekkio actually is a Nu, though. Yes, his final form is that of one, but whether that is because he is, in fact, a Nu, or whether it is simply because the Nu is the perfect species is unknown. Nu's have had no need to change or adapt. They had already evolved into their highest form which was more than capable of surviving no matter what, as we saw. It can not be proven that Nu are immortal, merely that their species transcends from the earliest era of time to the last era. So do humans, in the game, and the appearance of humans doesn't change much in that time period either, except for health and clothing type. Neither can it be proven, with the information given, that Gaspar is immortal due to his position at the End of Time. It's also impossible to determine if he is not.

Truthordeal

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2009, 02:18:45 pm »
Humans were artificially evolved to an acme point when they came into contact with the Frozen Flame.

Besides, evolution takes place over longer expanses of time  than the 14,300 gap we see between the first "modern" humans in Zeal and the last ones we see in 2,300 AD.

Miror B.

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2009, 11:57:51 pm »
Humans were artificially evolved to an acme point when they came into contact with the Frozen Flame.

Besides, evolution takes place over longer expanses of time  than the 14,300 gap we see between the first "modern" humans in Zeal and the last ones we see in 2,300 AD.
It was more than enough time for evolution to phase out magic.

Truthordeal

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2009, 12:07:17 am »
Shut me down...hehe.

Zephira

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2009, 02:41:54 am »
Humans were artificially evolved to an acme point when they came into contact with the Frozen Flame.

Besides, evolution takes place over longer expanses of time  than the 14,300 gap we see between the first "modern" humans in Zeal and the last ones we see in 2,300 AD.
This is the Chronoverse, not our reality. Their technology developed at a drastically different pace, who's to say their evolution was completely the same as ours?

But did evolution really phase out magic? The Mystics and plenty of monsters use it, and Crono Co could after Spekkio 'taught' them. But then that brings the question of how exactly he gave them magic. All he did was point and tell them what element they were - which implies the magic was already a part of them - then mutter a silly incantation and battle. It seems more likely that he merely unlocked something dormant, which grew of its own accord.
Then that begs the question, is it possible to give magic to a nonmagical being, or one whose species never possessed magic? Robo, a nonmagical and nonliving being, could not learn or be given magic. Ayla, who was born before magic (or before the magic that Spekkio knew), also could not learn or be given magic. So what, then, are the requirements for learning or receiving magic? What exactly is magic? Is it the energy of life found in all things and all matter, as in the Golden Sun games? Or is it something you must be born into, a mere chance of blood?

But, I'm going off on a tangent. Perhaps the heat is getting to me and I've gone senile like dear old Belthasar. As for Gaspar's age... time to look to his (obviously limited) sprites for comparison. Gaspar's EoT sprites are shaded very nicely.. Both that and his Guru sprites look extremely old. First thing to understand is that character sprites in CT have a maximum of 12 colours, plus 2 for the weapon, plus one more for transparency. The palette must be chosen so that the same colours can be used in different places for different effects, like a hair colour being used in clothing, yet looking nothing like hair.
Guru Gaspar's hair and mustache use dark, desaturated blues and greys. It is difficult to tell which part of EoT Gaspar is his mustache, but it looks like it has white or some very pale yellow for a highlight, then the browns and yellows of his cane for shadow. It could just be the light from his lamp post. Thing is, the highlight colour on his shoes looks like one of the shadow colours from Guru Gaspar's hair and sash. Not identical, but close. I can't see anywhere else this blue was used in EoT Gaspar.

(If you're too lazy to read examination of a sprite, skip here)
So, either it's just extremely harsh lighting under that lamp, or Gaspar really did lose his blue hair.

Xenterex

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2009, 02:21:17 am »
Quote
But did evolution really phase out magic?

I'd say by the present time, the genetic traits of magic were probably in the process of being phased out, but not completely gone.  One of the inhabitants of Zeal notices that your team is capable of using magic, via an observation of aura, but mentions that your abilities are weaker then theirs, thus indicating a deterioration over generations.  Now, thanks to Spekkio and the refining of abilities through the quest, its very likely that the trait has been rekindled to at least a more active level for the games characters, so then its possible their descendants would have magical abilities or potential.

Quote
Then that begs the question, is it possible to give magic to a nonmagical being, or one whose species never possessed magic? Robo, a nonmagical and nonliving being, could not learn or be given magic. Ayla, who was born before magic (or before the magic that Spekkio knew), also could not learn or be given magic. So what, then, are the requirements for learning or receiving magic? What exactly is magic? Is it the energy of life found in all things and all matter, as in the Golden Sun games? Or is it something you must be born into, a mere chance of blood?

I don't have all the citation of information i've collected previously, but I'm quoting myself here from another thread in the Magic/Technology/etc forums back when I did do research into answering that question:

"To begin, its been mentioned in the game that the core elements as used by innate magic users are    the forces that govern the universe. A universe is all matter and space as a whole, so manipulation of the universe, or utilizing these elemental forces, manipulates space." emphasis added.

Obviously people/races that don't know magic can be given magic as comparison between Ayla and Marle.  The qualifications for magic are probably genetic manipulation from Lavos, as he is the one major factor that occurs between Ayla's lifetime and that of Zeal.  Additionally, when Magus is being drained of his powers, its probably an effect of Lavos' manipulating Magus' genetic memory.

V_Translanka

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2009, 06:32:57 am »
If you break it down to the fundamentals Spekkio unlocks the party's ability to transform their own experiences in battle and over time (EXP) to refine their own natural ability...In the case of Magics, they each already possessed the ability to manipulate their innate Magic (I think its more chi) on some level (though Lucca's Fire-based weaponry would be questionable, Slash and Aura are not)...The ability to use Magic (and other abilities, both magical and physical) requires the use of their inner, innate vitality (MP)...What's really notable about what Spekkio does is that he also instantly teaches them the Magic fundamentals (Lightning 1, Fire 1, Ice 1, Water 1)...Weird that it seems to take Magic to make Magic in that way...

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2009, 12:28:14 am »
...Weird that it seems to take Magic to make Magic in that way...

Yes. The fact that Spekkio gives the team the "fundamentals" as he puts it, I don't think it has anything to do with evolution. Perhaps it is more of an aura type thing, and it works lamer than evolution, like if you're a good person(frog is a valiant knight for example) or if you are a strong person (a better example because magus is very strong but starts out very bad) it grows and if you're weak or you 'live a bad life' like put yourself into miserable situations, then all magic fades away completely.

Or maybe it's just radiation from the Dreamstone or the Frozen flame, then amplified by a more radioactive Mammon Machine, then further amplified by temporal warps and finally even more by a hug from a monster who's so full of the stuiff he can make magic people and he changes into different animals (I'm startin to remember why I came here in the first place [That superhero comic book type childhood nostalgia. ].).

ZeaLitY

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2009, 11:45:05 am »
Until we're told he doesn't, Gaspar ages. The End of Time has its own 4D time flow, even if it exists a transcendent 5D Time Error location. If time didn't flow there, Crono's team would have been frozen in place the moment they arrived.

utunnels

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Re: Does Gaspar Age?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2009, 12:36:01 pm »
Game is not science, so maybe sometimes romantic elements are allowed. I'm pretty sure there are myths in which there are places that people don't age.
The structures in EoT is obviously built by someone, so it is not just a abstract position in timeline, but a walkable area, strange, hmm? Perhaps you can imagine it as a small island in the sea of time(Zurvan), who ever enters it will be in his "spiritual" form(the gate, the EoT, the BoT, ..., maybe they are similar). So, there's no time-flow from our view, for example, a person who enters a gate in 600AD and travels to 1000AD, although we see a cool  waving effect that he travels through the gate in game, but actually, the travel doesn't take any time, because the "tunnel" between the  2 gates is nowhere to be found in the timeline.
I'd say once again, it is not science, so don't ask why things in EoT never age although time seems to be flowing in it, it is like discussing why magic doesn't follow the second law of thermodynamics.


« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 10:33:32 pm by utunnels »