Author Topic: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")  (Read 3019 times)

IAmSerge

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2009, 05:13:38 am »
I think that the CC only being usable by him goes back to the two dragon tears:

He used (or took part in the use of) the dragons tears, so after he used them, they were eternally "soul bound", to quote WOW, or atleast in a way that only those who have had a connection to the tears, who have experienced them, can use the CC.

And can someone please point me to the quote saying that Lynx took part in Serge drowning?

Chrono'99

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2009, 06:21:08 am »
Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet.  In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration.  How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed?  Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....?  Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?

The ending of the game shows that even in other dimensions, Schala Kid is looking for her "Serge". They're basically soulmates. CC's Schala was probably bound to hear/see/meet Serge too just like in the other dimensions.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2009, 11:44:38 am »
And can someone please point me to the quote saying that Lynx took part in Serge drowning?

Here you go...

Quote from: Crono ghost on Opassa Beach
   Ten years ago, it was Lynx
   who tried to kill you at
   this beach.
   After Prometheus broke the link
   between FATE and the Flame,
   FATE tried to eliminate any
   obstacle that stood in its way!

Remember that FATE first thought that killing Serge would unlock the Flame, not being aware of the Prometheus Circuit yet.

IAmSerge

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2009, 03:04:07 pm »
k!

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2009, 09:48:36 am »
Regardless of who tries to kill Serge, we're still left with Belthasar concocting a plan to empower a person that has never existed.  There has to be something special about Serge that was at least manipulated by Belthasar, causing him to want to empower that specific person, and also causing Schala to feel empathy for him instead of one of the millions of people dying in the Porre/Guardia war (like Crono, for instance).  I doubt genetic engineering is beyond Belthasar's capabilities.

Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?

utunnels

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2009, 10:06:29 am »
Quote
Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?
We don't. From what the game tells us, that is a common fisherman's family.
Crono in CT is not a noble man or even important person, right?

« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:13:44 am by utunnels »

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2009, 10:29:21 am »
Quote
Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?
We don't. From what the game tells us, that is a common fisherman's family.
Crono in CT is not a noble man or even important person, right?



Right, but no one (besides the Entity) was pulling the strings for Crono.  For Belthasar to do this, he had to know Serge (or a person like him, possessing whatever it was that Schala empathized with) would not only exist, but be hurt in such a way that Schala would sympathize with him and desire to save him by using the Frozen Flame.  Only then can his whole plan be put into motion. 

And, if Belthasar opened a history book just before he constructed FATE, Serge wouldn't be in it.  Not just because he wasn't famous, but because he was never born, and in fact the entire set of islands on which he lives has never even existed.

I'm saying that, since Serge's oldest descendents were probably from Chronopolis, is it too much to assume that Belthasar influenced his existence?  Could he have empowered a Chronopolis worker or two with something special that would pique Schala's interest (or her heart), then watched over them throughout history in the Neo-Epoch after the Time Crash, waiting for Schala to contact one of them?  I think it's at least possible...

utunnels

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2009, 11:57:50 am »
Well, to answer that question, we must know what was Project Kid's original plan, but it seems the game doesn't contain enough direct information.

* Belthasar learnt that Schala and Lavos merged into a new being.
* Belthasar knew that a ChronoCross could free Schala from Lavos.
* The ChronoCross's creation needs 2 copies of Dragon Tear, thus 2 dimensions are needed.
   So Belthasar must know how to cause dimension split.
* The person uses ChronoCross must have made contact with Schala herself.
   So Belthasar knew the whole thing about a Schala clone(later Kid).
* The experiments in Chronopolis involved parallel worlds somehow. For example, the Radical Dreamers reports.
   So 1. they could watch events happened in parallel worlds. OR 2. They just simulated those events.
   That answers how Belthasar knew a man called Serge?
* If 2 is true(see above), the experiments might be inaccuracy, that's why Belthasar needed to time travel to make sure his plan not ruined by some random events.

...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 12:01:50 pm by utunnels »

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2009, 02:20:53 pm »
Well, to answer that question, we must know what was Project Kid's original plan, but it seems the game doesn't contain enough direct information.

* Belthasar learnt that Schala and Lavos merged into a new being.
* Belthasar knew that a ChronoCross could free Schala from Lavos.
* The ChronoCross's creation needs 2 copies of Dragon Tear, thus 2 dimensions are needed.
   So Belthasar must know how to cause dimension split.
* The person uses ChronoCross must have made contact with Schala herself.
   So Belthasar knew the whole thing about a Schala clone(later Kid).
* The experiments in Chronopolis involved parallel worlds somehow. For example, the Radical Dreamers reports.
   So 1. they could watch events happened in parallel worlds. OR 2. They just simulated those events.

   That answers how Belthasar knew a man called Serge?
* If 2 is true(see above), the experiments might be inaccuracy, that's why Belthasar needed to time travel to make sure his plan not ruined by some random events.

...

I always thought that these experiments weren't done until after the Time Crash, and subsequently after 1010 AD.  That should be the only time that Chronopolis could observe Home and Another world. 

However, the Radical Dreamers dimension is interesting.  I wonder where Serge came from in that dimension...?  Observing that dimension could have let Belthasar know that Serge and Schala were "soul mates", for instance.  However, if Belthasar was able to observe it before he orchestrated Project Kid, it would've had to have come into existence before the Time Crash. Or how bout this....

1) Belthasar sets up the Time Crash, and then departs for ~1010 AD.
2) Belthasar / Schala sends Kid to 1004 to be found by Lucca.
3) Belthasar goes to Chronopolis in ~1020 AD and observes the Radical Dreamers dimension, now made possible because the Time Crash has already occured and El Nido is formed.  He observes Kid, Serge and Magus interacting, and realizes the attraction between Kid and Serge.
4) Belthasar travels back in time to 1006 AD and sets a panther demon on Serge.  This event causes the events in Chrono Cross because Schala senses her "soul mate" is in danger when she hears him crying, and blows him to safety.  Had the demon not attacked, he would've become the musician we knew in RD.
5) Belthasar watches Serge grow up and sees that he isn't the musician, and that he is the Arbiter of the Flame.  He lets FATE kill him.
6) Belthasar then waits until 1020 AD, after Serge would have been old enough to handle the job he needs done.  He sends Kid back to save him.  Blah Blah Blah

Thought

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2009, 03:47:04 pm »
Problem there, Killercactus, is that letting Serge live destorys the future somehow (the exact process is never stated, but if Serge lives past 1010, the future's crap). The more original, less altered timeline appears to be that Serge dies before he grows up. Perhaps this was originally via the Panther Demon, and so FATE actually did have Lynx seek out and kill Serge so that Chronopolis would remain and the Frozen Flame could be unlocked.

But if Serge's dies in a comparitively unaltered timeline, that means Belthasar couldn't have gone to 1020 to observe how Kid, Serge, and Magil interacted. His knowledge that Serge had the potential to reach Schala had to have come before Serge's original death.

Perhaps we should prioritize Belthasar's priorities? First and formost, to save Schala he needed the ChronoCross. It does no good to get a powerful warrior into the DBT if they weren't armed with that to separate Schala from the TD. Thus, splitting the dimensions was of fundamental importance. Serge's importance to the plan may be entirely contained in the fact that he is the key that caused the dimensions to split and so he was the only one who could easily travel between dimensions to retrieve the dragon's tear.

Of course, Belthasar would need to have been aware of the Dragon's Tear in the first place, which implies that either he studied the reptite dimension or he traveled to 12,000 BCish to study Dinopolis, or that he had some way of searching entire dimensions for artifacts with that potential (the Dragon's Tear might not be unique in its ability but rather practicle). Given that the Dragonians created a shrine to create the Chrono Cross, it seems that Belthasar might have influenced them as well.

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2009, 09:32:40 am »
Problem there, Killercactus, is that letting Serge live destorys the future somehow (the exact process is never stated, but if Serge lives past 1010, the future's crap).

I don't think we know this for sure.  We know that if Serge lives past 1010 as an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, the future's crap.  The exact process is never stated, but I've always assumed it had to do with the plotline that didn't totally make it into Cross, about Serge being consumed by the TD since he is an Arbiter.  If he never becomes an Arbiter, the future may be safe after all - there's just no way to save Schala.

And you're right - Belthasar's first priority was to save Schala, for which he needed a Chrono Cross.  To get a Chrono Cross, he needed two dimensions that had a Dragon Tear in them.  The thing is though, there were already two dimensions with a Dragon Tear (Another World and the Radical Dreamers dimension), but he didn't have anyone that could traverse them (possibly besides FATE, but FATE has no need for it).  What he needed was someone that could traverse two dimensions and obtain two Dragon Tears to create a Chrono Cross.  He then probably decided just to use this person to defeat the TD as well, since the person would need to fight through hell just to create a Chrono Cross.

So, in order to make a dimensional-traveler, he knows he needs that person to touch the Flame.  He installs Prometheus so that when that happens, FATE will challenge this person enough to be empowered by the end of the journey, and also to originally kill the person so that Kid can change the past and split the dimensions (he may also know that FATE will obtain one or both Dragon Tears to try and override Prometheus).  In order to have that person touch the Flame, he needs to shut down Chronopolis' defenses.  In order to do that, he needs Schala's power.  In order to get Schala's power, he has to find someone she believes is worth saving, and the only available option to Schala to save that person must be the Flame.

So, if he observes the RD dimension in which Serge is not attacked and not made an Arbiter, and notices Kid and Serge's possible romantic attraction, he could decide that Schala would believe Serge is worth saving by using the Frozen Flame.  That could be why Serge is chosen for all of this in the first place, and Belthasar could have set the panther demon on him to begin all of this.

kid123

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2009, 11:28:30 am »
Nice observation, although I foreseen the romantic attraction as being simplistic excuses. I doubt she choose Serge to be saved over his brother who has gone through hell and devote to save her life. If you want to talk about possible love affair, choose Serge-Kid (clone) over Serge-Schala. Beside, it take the whole Radical Dreamer's duration before the love affair between Serge and Kid to bloom, that I assume last for a week. But in Chrono Cross, it only take 5 minute for Schala to contact with Serge temporarily. I assume she doesn't have adequate time needed to survey Serge merit of touching the Frozen Flame (beside she even could leave Serge alone, because he can be cured by Sage of Marbule anyway, did you remember that point in the storyline?), or even to be fanatical by his mysterious attraction.

Anyway, there are another possibility. Maybe Schala already acknowledge the Project Kid plan beforehand, and want to comply with them to save her life because not even her life in danger, but the whole time space continuum are under threat of defeated Lavos and Schala fusion aftermath, Time Devourer. It may be possible during the process of Schala contacting to Serge's era. Or probably between the duration of after fused with Lavos  and obviously before Serge attacked by panther demon. Although the DBT feature and nature are still being discussed. It is comparable to End of Time feature that allowed any person to observe any possible era because its nature of being perpendicular to timeline.

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2009, 04:29:35 pm »
Magus doesn't need saved though, so Schala has no reason to save him.  Plus, I'd think Belthasar would have a far tougher time mortally wounding Magus than a 3 year old Serge.

Secondly, I'm saying Schala would save Serge from the idea of them being soul mates, not necessarily because they just happened to fall for one another.  By observation of the Radical Dreamers dimension, Belthasar could've postulated that Schala/Kid and Serge were indeed soul mates, and that Schala, with her now immense power, would be able to sense her soul mate was in danger and save him.  I'm really just searching for a reason that Serge is important enough for Schala to waste her time on.

I tend to doubt that she, in her Time Devourer form in the DBT, has any idea about Project Kid.  However, it is curious that she decides to clone herself and send her clone to that year.... I suppose it could've been in an attempt to be with her soul mate, Serge...?

Thought

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2009, 05:14:28 pm »
I don't think we know this for sure.  We know that if Serge lives past 1010 as an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, the future's crap.

True. But for that to have not been the more-original timeline, there would have needed to have been additional changes to the past. That is, in the more original timeline, Chronopolis gets sent to 12000ish B.C. The future changes because of that. From what the game seems to indicate, Serge's born in the first new-timeline after the Time Crash, gets bitten by a panther demon, comes in contact with the flame, and eventually gets offed by his father. For that to not be the timeline Belthasar would observe, there would need to be an intermediate timeline in which Serge did not come in contact with the FF and that the timeline was then changed to bring about the screw-serge timeline. Possible, certainly, but I'm not aware of any evidence.

The exact process is never stated, but I've always assumed it had to do with the plotline that didn't totally make it into Cross, about Serge being consumed by the TD since he is an Arbiter.  If he never becomes an Arbiter, the future may be safe after all - there's just no way to save Schala.

It isn't even known if that was an plotline at all. For one, the game uses the term "Arbiter" in two different contexts. In Chronopolis, it appears to be nothing more than a security clearance: Serge wasn't the first and he might not be the last. The other use comes in the infodump at the end of the game, where Serge is designated as a mediator between lavos and the rest of the world (what he mediates, and why the FF would give serge power OVER lavos, isn't explained and may just be poetic).

The thing is though, there were already two dimensions with a Dragon Tear (Another World and the Radical Dreamers dimension)...

While I haven't played Radical Dreamers, I find no information in the encyclopedia that the Radical Dreamers Dimension had a Dragon's Tear.

So, in order to make a dimensional-traveler, he knows he needs that person to touch the Flame.

Sorry, you lost me there. How does he know he needs a person to touch the FF in order to make a Slider?

In order to get Schala's power, he has to find someone she believes is worth saving, and the only available option to Schala to save that person must be the Flame.

Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2009, 05:21:07 pm »
Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?

Quote from: Lucca ghost on Opassa Beach
   Princess Schala traveled ten
   thousand years in time to try
   and make contact with this
   dimension!
   This caused a raging magnetic
   storm that resulted in FATE's
   system malfunction, which led
   Serge to the Frozen Flame.

No, it was accidental.