Author Topic: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")  (Read 2949 times)

killercactus

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Wow, it's been a while since I've been around here....

I had some time today and started delving back into Chrono Cross, and I came across a conundrum.  In the original timeline (i.e., before Kid travels back to 1010 and the dimensions split), Serge is killed in 1010 by Lynx.  Apparently, Lynx killed Serge because he was an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, and FATE could not access it as long as he was alive, right?

I'm not so sure.

On the same timeline, in 1015, Lynx and Harle track down Lucca and murder her.  The supposed reasoning behind this (per the Condensed Plot Summary here at the Compendium) is because they believe she has information that can help release the lock on the Frozen Flame.

What????  I thought Serge's death already unlocked the Flame...?  Isn't that why he had to be killed in the first place?  This brings up a couple of questions.

1)  If Serge was killed in order for FATE to reaccess the Flame, why did Lynx need Lucca at all?  Furthermore, during the playout of Cross itself, why does Lynx go through the hassle of switching bodies with Serge to get to the Flame?  Does FATE believe or know that it cannot kill him?

2)  If Serge's death did NOT release the Arbiter lock on the Flame, how did FATE continue to operate in Another World?  How did it instruct the guy in Arni not to become a fisherman?  And, why was Serge killed in the first place?

My guess would be that, if Serge's death didn't unlock the Flame, than Lynx killed him because FATE knew he would somehow bring about the end of the world if it didn't (we know this to be true thanks to Home World and the Dead Sea existing the way they do).  As soon as he touches the Flame, he's destined to bond with the Time Devourer and help destroy the world, so Lynx/FATE kills him, even though it knows that it won't be able to access the Flame anymore.  That still doesn't explain stuff like the fisherman though, and brings back the "Belthasar is an a-hole theory because he puts the world in jeopardy to save Schala."
« Last Edit: July 07, 2009, 09:34:42 am by killercactus »

utunnels

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 12:52:21 pm »
Well, IMO even if Serge was killed the lock wouldn't be ulocked.
FATE might have known that already or not. Maybe he killed Serge just because he hated him. But it is more likely he didn't know the result.

FATE: Wut, it is still locked up?! Well, I gotta find another way....

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 02:30:26 pm »
It wasn't actually Serge the one who kept the Flame locked. It was actually the Prometheus Circuit. It locked access to the Flame once Serge became the arbiter, and will only allow access to him. Which is why Linx went after Lucca, since she could unlocked it without needing Serge.

Once that failed, FATE decided to use Serge as a backup plan, leading to the whole body switch thing for access and all what happens in the game.

Quote from: Crono ghost on Opassa Beach
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 02:41:22 pm »
It wasn't actually Serge the one who kept the Flame locked. It was actually the Prometheus Circuit. It locked access to the Flame once Serge became the arbiter, and will only allow access to him. Which is why Linx went after Lucca, since she could unlocked it without needing Serge.

Once that failed, FATE decided to use Serge as a backup plan, leading to the whole body switch thing for access and all what happens in the game.

Quote from: Crono ghost on Opassa Beach
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

Right, but I was wondering why FATE would kill Serge if it knew that killing him wouldn't unlock the Prometheus circuit.

I suppose I assumed that FATE would have to know how the Prometheus circuit worked.  I mean, it knew that it had to pass a DNA scan of the Arbiter to dupe it... do we really just accept that it didn't know that killing Serge wouldn't give it access back, so it went to Plan B (and then to C)?  If it's smart enough to calculate that Serge will cross the dimensions one day, it has to know that killing him won't unlock the circuit, right?

Furthermore, that means that in the original timeline (before Kid's interference), FATE never regained access to the Frozen Flame.  So, after getting Lucca didn't work, did it just give up?  I mean, the dimensions weren't split yet so it couuldn't calculate that Serge would cross them until 5 years later.  I just can't imaging FATE thinking "Huh - killing Serge didn't work, and catching Lucca didn't work.  Man, I wish I didn't kill Serge so that I could copy his DNA and get back into the Flame again.  Now what do i do?"

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 02:55:32 pm »
Remember that the Prometheus Circuit was programmed that in the case FATE could detect it, it would erase any sign of it's existence to kept it hidden. So, FATE didn't knew of it's functions for years.

Then, once Serge became the arbiter and access was locked, FATE at first thought that killing him would unlock the Flame and gain access again. Then, some time after 1010 AD and killing Serge, FATE was able to permanently be aware of the Prometheus Circuit and now knew what exactly did it had to do.

So, Linx went after Lucca as Plan A. Since the dimensions were split, and FATE was monitoring both, it learned that Serge survived in the other one, and so it became Plan B if Lucca didn't cooperated, knowing that Serge wouldn't cross to Another World until 1020 AD.

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 04:49:42 pm »
Remember that the Prometheus Circuit was programmed that in the case FATE could detect it, it would erase any sign of it's existence to kept it hidden. So, FATE didn't knew of it's functions for years.
Then, once Serge became the arbiter and access was locked, FATE at first thought that killing him would unlock the Flame and gain access again. Then, some time after 1010 AD and killing Serge, FATE was able to permanently be aware of the Prometheus Circuit and now knew what exactly did it had to do.

So, Linx went after Lucca as Plan A. Since the dimensions were split, and FATE was monitoring both, it learned that Serge survived in the other one, and so it became Plan B if Lucca didn't cooperated, knowing that Serge wouldn't cross to Another World until 1020 AD.

OK - I remember the bold quote now, and that explains the killing of Serge and then the subsequent abduction of Lucca.  However, if we're assuming a Y shaped dimensional split, the dimensions haven't split yet when FATE first abducts Lucca - it will be 5 years until Kid travels back in time to split them.  How can FATE calculate that Serge will eventually cross the dimensions if the dimensions aren't yet split?  Does that question make sense?

Thought

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 05:00:07 pm »
I thought that Wazuki killed Serge because he went a bit insane, not because he was under orders from FATE to do so.

Quote from: Crono
  I don't know how to break
   this to you, but...
   Lynx was actually your
   father, Wazuki!
   Drawing closer to the Flame
   caused him to become unstable,
   and the image of you dying in
   terror changed him completely!
   Finally, after having his
   psyche totally eroded,
   he lost his soul and was
   easily integrated by FATE...
   FATE turned Wazuki into a
   biological interface, modelling
   him after your worst fear at
   the time -- a panther.
   Although Wazuki managed to
   escape from Chronopolis with
   you, he later completely
   succumbed to FATE.
   Humans are such fragile,
   disjointed, imperfect things.
   Love and hate...

   Life and death...

Lynx might have even been trying to protect Serge by killing him.

IAmSerge

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 05:01:47 pm »
Quote
Right, but I was wondering why FATE would kill Serge if it knew that killing him wouldn't unlock the Prometheus circuit.

I suppose I assumed that FATE would have to know how the Prometheus circuit worked.  I mean, it knew that it had to pass a DNA scan of the Arbiter to dupe it... do we really just accept that it didn't know that killing Serge wouldn't give it access back, so it went to Plan B (and then to C)?  If it's smart enough to calculate that Serge will cross the dimensions one day, it has to know that killing him won't unlock the circuit, right?

Furthermore, that means that in the original timeline (before Kid's interference), FATE never regained access to the Frozen Flame.  So, after getting Lucca didn't work, did it just give up?  I mean, the dimensions weren't split yet so it couuldn't calculate that Serge would cross them until 5 years later.  I just can't imaging FATE thinking "Huh - killing Serge didn't work, and catching Lucca didn't work.  Man, I wish I didn't kill Serge so that I could copy his DNA and get back into the Flame again.  Now what do i do?"

First, from what I remember, FATE DIDN'T kill me.  I drown on opassa beach, just a natural accident, with a 50/50 chance.  If Lynx had killed me, that would have been 100% me dying.  However, the two timelines were created as a result of Kid coming back in time and saving me, after the current timeline had already killed me.

Second: Fate didn't even know of the prometheus circuit.  "Or, more correctly... ...the circuit was programmed so that the moment FATE did detect it, it would erase all record of its detection."  

I'm not sure where I am goign with this, but I'm sure someone can pick up the rest of my trail... right?


killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 05:27:56 pm »
OK - you guys are all right.  It seems Serge's death does not release the Prometheus circuit's lock on the Frozen Flame, which gives FATE a good reason to go after Lucca.  In trying to follow all of my thoughts through to fruition on this, I'm going to ask a question that takes this thread in a completely different direction. 

Lucca states in the end of Cross that Belthasar built Chronopolis and orchestrated Project Kid all to empower Serge to defeat the Time Devourer.  Part of this plan was the Time Crash.  The Time Crash caused Chronopolis to be sent back into the past, in which it defeated Dinopolis in a war, terraformed an archipelago and populated it with inhabitants from both citiets, and avoided contact with the mainland, right?  That means all the people of Termina (and all of El Nido) are ancestors of the Chronopolis workers, or the Dinopolis survivors.  This includes Serge.

Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet.  In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration.  How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed?  Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....?  Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 06:15:44 pm »
First, from what I remember, FATE DIDN'T kill me.  I drown on opassa beach, just a natural accident, with a 50/50 chance.  If Lynx had killed me, that would have been 100% me dying.  However, the two timelines were created as a result of Kid coming back in time and saving me, after the current timeline had already killed me.

Are you sure Serge? But indeed, it was an ''accident'' caused by Wazuki/Lynx.

But anyway...

Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet.  In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration.  How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed?  Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....?  Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?

Maybe he didn't exactly had set people in his plan, more like just the roles. Like for example, he has it like this: 'The ruler of El Nido will do this and that', and not: 'General Viper will do this and that'. But that's just what I think.

utunnels

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2009, 09:36:29 pm »
And Belthasar was incredibly lucky. Lynx didn't find him in Viper Manor! Or else, the big cat might have squeezed all the useful information out of him. :lol:
Well, I don't know whether Belthasar knew Lynx was FATE at that time, he didn't run for his life...
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 11:13:24 pm by utunnels »

killercactus

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2009, 11:02:34 pm »

Maybe he didn't exactly had set people in his plan, more like just the roles. Like for example, he has it like this: 'The ruler of El Nido will do this and that', and not: 'General Viper will do this and that'. But that's just what I think.

I could probably accept that for General Viper, or the Devas or the other secondary characters, but not Serge.  Belthasar would have to say "Eventually Schala will hear someone crying, and hopefully they'll be in such a place that she can get them to the Frozen Flame".  That one is tough.

Now, if Belthasar did some kind of experiment where he put a trace of the Flame into a couple humans (or something similar), and he waited until their first decendant after Crono was born, he might've known Schala could hear his crying, because of his lineage.  Then he just sends a panther demon and the rest is history.

ZealKnight

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2009, 11:17:52 pm »
Wasn't it a Panther that killed Serge not Lynx? And...

Quote
FATE attempted to track down Lucca so that she may deactivate the Prometheus Circuit, which was preventing Chronopolis from accessing its source of power, the Frozen Flame.

She wouldn't do it. So OFF WITH HEAD!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 11:23:30 pm by ZealKnight »

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2009, 11:42:18 pm »
Wasn't it a Panther that killed Serge not Lynx?

That was when he got poisoned, but not killed until some years later. The actual murder attempt was indeed made by Lynx.

kid123

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Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 04:53:37 am »
Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet.  In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration.  How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed?  Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....?  Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?


You just make another interesting point, let us assume CE is canon, and there are some Zealians staff of Chronopolis. There is good chance that Serge is a descendant of the Zealian staff of Chronopolis, and his father and Serge's blue hair which I consider an anomaly from normal human nature might further prove this more. Perhaps that also answer why he possessed Crono's Luminaire, which is one of Zealian magic.

Sorry for being off topic, but this indulge me to point it out  :P

I support the idea that perhaps Serge's creation is one of Project Kid plan, why? Keyword: Chrono Cross.

As far as I concern, Serge is the only one who can allocated Chrono Cross to his Element Grid, among over 40 characters.
I fully aware that I have entered world of gameplay, which isn't really canon nor part of a character's role. However, this may be one of plot that developer intended to be.
Anyway, if this is true, then Belthasar must use the only pawn that could use Chrono Cross, or Project Kid isn't working as planned.So, without any other choice, he has to create a person that could use Chrono Cross to save Schala through his project. Perhaps that might answer some of your question featuring his important role in survival of Home World and whether his creation is part of the plan or not.


And one more thing, I don't think Project Kid consist of linear plan. Perhaps the plan change from A to B by considering the suitable method and tactic for best possible outcome. Maybe he don't know the existence of Chrono Cross, then planned to create Serge by altering the timeline and the pre-accomplished plan so that he has authority of Chrono Cross power.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 12:16:22 pm by kid123 »