Author Topic: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")  (Read 4804 times)

killercactus

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2009, 05:35:37 pm »

True. But for that to have not been the more-original timeline, there would have needed to have been additional changes to the past. That is, in the more original timeline, Chronopolis gets sent to 12000ish B.C. The future changes because of that. From what the game seems to indicate, Serge's born in the first new-timeline after the Time Crash, gets bitten by a panther demon, comes in contact with the flame, and eventually gets offed by his father. For that to not be the timeline Belthasar would observe, there would need to be an intermediate timeline in which Serge did not come in contact with the FF and that the timeline was then changed to bring about the screw-serge timeline. Possible, certainly, but I'm not aware of any evidence.

Unfortunately, the things I'm saying are loaded with assumptions.  We know Belthasar had the Neo-Epoch, and at least traveled back to 1020.  I'd be willing to bet (and am assuming here) he did a little bit more than that.

Quote from: Thought
While I haven't played Radical Dreamers, I find no information in the encyclopedia that the Radical Dreamers Dimension had a Dragon's Tear.

I'm just going from pure logic here, though it's possibly flawed I suppose.  In RD, El Nido exists (I think..right?), therefore the Time Crash has already happened, therefore Dinopolis was introduced, therefore Dragon Tear.

Quote from: Thought

Sorry, you lost me there. How does he know he needs a person to touch the FF in order to make a Slider?

Yet another assumption, but considering that Lynx seems to be able to traverse the dimensions it seems logical that the Flame's power can do that.

Quote from: Thought

Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?

We don't.  Here's what Lucca says:

Quote from: Lucca
Edited thanks to Acacia Sgt. posting it on the page before

Lucca seems to imply that the storm was caused by Schala merely trying to contact this time period.  However, there's also this from Miguel's flashback:

Quote from: Miguel's Flashback
Wazuki:
   What is this place?

Miguel:
   I don't know...
   but I don't think we're
   supposed to know about it...

 [Schala]
   That child...
   That wounded child...
   Bring him to me...

Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it.  If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 05:37:29 pm by killercactus »

Claxo

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2009, 05:38:58 pm »
I thought it was mentioned somewhere that dimensional splits were rather rare circumstances in the Chronoverse. If that's the case, I have a theory I find somewhat interesting.

If dimensional splits are rare, the best place to create one is where a piece of another dimension already exists. That is to say, Belthasar initiated the Time Crash having calculated that not only would Lavos pull Chronopolis back in time but that the planet would do the same with a piece of another dimension; Dinopolis. It was then a matter of terraforming the El Nido Archepelago so that, at a calculated time, causing a dimensional split would be possible. That said, orchestrating the event would be, in my opinion, the tricky part. So here's how I think it could have possibly went down.

Unless a dimensional split occurs, most 'discarded' timelines end up in the DBT. This would be the case of the events in Radical Dreamers. Given the case, Schala would have been able to see these events thus giving her not only a reason to create a clone of herself but a connection to Serge as well. This could be why Schala attempted to somehow save Serge.

How does Belthasar play into this? If he kept in contact with Lucca, he would have learned about Kid and as smart as he is, deduced that Schala had created her as part of a plan to save herself. Indeed, Project Kid could have easily been designed for Kid herself and not Serge. It wouldn't matter to Belthasar either way. Whether it was Kid or Serge who eventually made contact with the Flame, events would have played out that would have lead to a dimensional split and the creation of the ChronoCross.

Imagine if Kid had been the one to find the Flame and become the Arbiter. FATE would have still sought her out to kill her in order to reconnect with the Flame. All Belthasar would have to do then is go back in time, save her, and the dimensional split would be created. He would have then directed her on her journey to create the ChronoCross and save Schala. Instead, Schala chose Serge to become the Arbiter (intentionally or not is open to debate) and events played out as they did in the game. (Side note: Reaching Chronopolis, overcoming its defenses and coming into contact with the Flame would have been easy enough for Kid given that she was protected by that conundrum of an amulet she posessed. It wouldn't have been a breeze, but possible.)

Why was the future doomed if Serge had lived? Simple enough really. Had Serge lived, Project Kid wouldn't be able to reach a conclusion. The Time Devourer would have matured and then game over. One could almost say that Serge was destined to die once becoming the Arbiter.

As long winded as all that was, its my two cents on the whole thing.

Acacia Sgt

  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2549
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2009, 05:55:23 pm »
I'm just going from pure logic here, though it's possibly flawed I suppose.  In RD, El Nido exists (I think..right?), therefore the Time Crash has already happened, therefore Dinopolis was introduced, therefore Dragon Tear.

It doesn't. Since that dimension's Schala was sent directly to the early 1000's and the TD never came to be, Belthasar had no reason to create Chronopolis. Serge is from the mainland and Viper Manor was also made there, meaning the Dragoons never left since there wasn't an El Nido to go to.

Lucca seems to imply that the storm was caused by Schala merely trying to contact this time period.  However, there's also this from Miguel's flashback:

Quote from: Miguel's Flashback
Wazuki:
   What is this place?

Miguel:
   I don't know...
   but I don't think we're
   supposed to know about it...

 [Schala]
   That child...
   That wounded child...
   Bring him to me...

Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it.  If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?


Yes, she was lucky they made it to Chronopolis. Had they been able to reach Marbule despite the storm, things would have gone very differently. Which makes me wonder, did Belthasar knew the storm would happen? Or at least something that would cause them to go where he needs them to?

Or you could say that even before that, he anticipated a panther to poison Serge in order for Schala to hear him? Or replace panther and poison with anything that would get the same result.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 12:26:35 pm by Acacia Sgt »

Vehek

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1725
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2009, 05:56:01 pm »
Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it.  If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?
That labeling/attribution in the script might be wrong.

Quote
Question: In Miguels' flashback, whose voice did Wazuki and Miguel hear in Chronopolis?

Answer: The Frozen Flame's voice. Or, the thoughts of the Frozen Flame converted into human's language in their own minds. That would perhaps be the more appropriate answer.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 05:57:35 pm by Vehek »

Acacia Sgt

  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2549
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2009, 06:00:29 pm »
I see, it was just the flame. Still, it was lucky for them to end up there. They could have as easily ended up in any of the three surrounding islands, totally ruining the whole thing.

killercactus

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2009, 08:58:53 am »
I see, it was just the flame. Still, it was lucky for them to end up there. They could have as easily ended up in any of the three surrounding islands, totally ruining the whole thing.

Right, which is kind of why I assumed that someone meant for them to turn up there.  It's definitely part of Belthasar's plan to have FATE go after an Arbiter, so someone has got to touch the Flame for that to happen.

Also, thanks for the RD correction - I had forgotten Schala was teleported straight to 1000 AD and that Serge was from the mainland.  That's very interesting though, if we try to wrap Radical Dreamers into all of this...  is Serge's family possibly from the mainland in Chrono Cross?

Acacia Sgt

  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2549
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2009, 11:11:28 am »
Well, technically, yes. But remember that is because the ones to first live in El Nido were the people of Chronopolis, which mostly were from the mainland, and it took thousands of years for the people of the mainland to discover and travel to El Nido.

Serge's family comes from the former group.

killercactus

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2009, 12:08:51 pm »
Well, technically, yes. But remember that is because the ones to first live in El Nido were the people of Chronopolis, which mostly were from the mainland, and it took thousands of years for the people of the mainland to discover and travel to El Nido.

Serge's family comes from the former group.

Right, but I guess what I'm saying is that if Serge in CC is the same Serge from RD, just in a different dimension, Serge can't be a descendant of the Chronopolis workers because Chronopolis wasn't there in the RD dimension.  If he isn't, it takes away any "genetic engineering" Belthasar could've done to Serge's descendants.

Acacia Sgt

  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2549
  • Forever loyal to the Acacia Dragoons
    • View Profile
Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca? (evolved into "Why is Serge special?")
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2009, 12:25:38 pm »
Well, there you go, they aren't exactly dimensional counterparts.

Which makes me wonder if that Serge (RD's) was also in the CC time line, back there in the main land. I don't see why not, but who knows?