Author Topic: IRC Policy??  (Read 2474 times)

ZaichikArky

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IRC Policy??
« on: June 22, 2009, 09:57:06 am »
I realize that the complaint wiki won't really address much since it addressed that one problem for which it was started for.

I don't get why members who are banned from the forum have to be banned from the IRC as well. It is completely unnecessary punishment because the forum and the irc are completely different places.

I wish that you guys would unban everyone who was banned from the forum. They should be allowed to use the IRC. They did nothing to deserve being kicked from the IRC and it's just a crappy policy.

Jutty

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 11:19:27 am »
I realize that the complaint wiki won't really address much since it addressed that one problem for which it was started for.

I don't get why members who are banned from the forum have to be banned from the IRC as well. It is completely unnecessary punishment because the forum and the irc are completely different places.

I wish that you guys would unban everyone who was banned from the forum. They should be allowed to use the IRC. They did nothing to deserve being kicked from the IRC and it's just a crappy policy.

That.

Temporal Knight

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 02:28:12 pm »
When it comes to forum and IRC banning, there are much of the same reasons for each that banning occurs, such as Spamming, Flaming, trolling...etc etc etc.

But when it comes to IRC banning, as long as the IRC user is not breaking the rules of the IRC (even if they somehow where banned on the forums), it is not worth banning them at all.

I will use Teaflower as an example, for she was a productive member of this forum. Even though she was banned from the forum, she did not break any rules on the IRC. So, therefore, banning her from the IRC was an action that was not worth it. It would be different if she were abusing the IRC, but in this case she did not.

The same follows for many other members who followed IRC rules yet were banned from the forums.

Banning from the IRC is something that should be taken with care. IRC is a public chat, therefore gives rights for all users (including banned forum members) to use it as long as they are following the guidelines for the IRC.

KebreI

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 02:54:29 pm »
The IRC is part of the compendium though. If you don't want banned from it then don't get banned from the compendium's forums, and vias versa. It's simple and fair.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 03:10:59 pm »
Was this recent? Cause I've been gone a couple days, and a couple days ago, Tea and Shadow got on IRC quite often.

Interesting. Are they banned from outlaws also? Or is that not a Compendium thing...?

ZaichikArky

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 04:01:09 pm »
Was this recent? Cause I've been gone a couple days, and a couple days ago, Tea and Shadow got on IRC quite often.

Interesting. Are they banned from outlaws also? Or is that not a Compendium thing...?

Yeah, it was recent. What happened was that Ramsus created #Outlaws for all the banned people to go. So instead of one big channel, all the banned people(and some not banned people) hang out at #Outlaws, but just about everyone thinks that they should be allowed on BOTH channels.

Lord J Esq

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 06:41:29 pm »
Our message forums and our IRC services may be different settings, but they're both a part of the Chrono Compendium. When somebody does something serious enough to warrant a ban, we don't want them hanging around on the periphery of the community. That just creates hard feelings. When you're fired from a job, you don't get to keep on hanging out in the breakroom, you know? If you earn a ban, you're finished with the Compendium. That's the only sensible way to do it. This very thread is an example of the ongoing community strife that the banned members' continuing pseudo-presence can cause. Those banned from the forums should be banned altogether from IRC as well.

Lest anyone forget, ZeaLitY is not exactly trigger-happy. Other than Laith, there haven't been any bannings in quite a while, except for those relating to the Cease & Disease crisis--all of whom had willingly chosen to take action that imperiled our entire community. I think those of you who are sore about it need to recognize that actions have consequences. Hopefully those banned will learn a lesson from their mistakes, but that lesson will have to be applied elsewhere. The banned people need to move on with their lives. They'll still have access to the Compendium's resources like the encyclopedia and game scripts, and that's good enough.

Meanwhile, the community needs to move on too. If you're pissed off about this, then you can quit in solidarity. But if you choose to stay here, you shouldn't be complaining and complaining about it on the forums (or in IRC). That's childish and selfish. If you have something to say, fire off a PM to one of the administrators. I guarantee you that they listen. They may not do what you want them to do, but they're not a bunch of monolithic fiends.

ZaichikArky

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 06:47:43 pm »
Our message forums and our IRC services may be different settings, but they're both a part of the Chrono Compendium. When somebody does something serious enough to warrant a ban, we don't want them hanging around on the periphery of the community. That just creates hard feelings. When you're fired from a job, you don't get to keep on hanging out in the breakroom, you know? If you earn a ban, you're finished with the Compendium. That's the only sensible way to do it. This very thread is an example of the ongoing community strife that the banned members' continuing pseudo-presence can cause. Those banned from the forums should be banned altogether from IRC as well.

Lest anyone forget, ZeaLitY is not exactly trigger-happy. Other than Laith, there haven't been any bannings in quite a while, except for those relating to the Cease & Disease crisis--all of whom had willingly chosen to take action that imperiled our entire community. I think those of you who are sore about it need to recognize that actions have consequences. Hopefully those banned will learn a lesson from their mistakes, but that lesson will have to be applied elsewhere. The banned people need to move on with their lives. They'll still have access to the Compendium's resources like the encyclopedia and game scripts, and that's good enough.

Meanwhile, the community needs to move on too. If you're pissed off about this, then you can quit in solidarity. But if you choose to stay here, you shouldn't be complaining and complaining about it on the forums (or in IRC). That's childish and selfish. If you have something to say, fire off a PM to one of the administrators. I guarantee you that they listen. They may not do what you want them to do, but they're not a bunch of monolithic fiends.

This is a forum that specifically deals with ways we think we can improve upon the community.

I put up a suggestion on how the community can be improved by improving one of its brand new policies that many, if not most people don't agree with. If you agree with it, that's your own thing and no one is criticizing that, but why is it selfish and immature to bring up in a mature manner a disagreement in a forum that encourages members to participate in making the community a better place?

Lord J Esq

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 07:54:23 pm »
You're right. This board is for making suggestions, and I perhaps overstepped to call the topic selfish. In the context of all the griping that's been done in the aftermath of the C&D crisis, most of which hasn't been constructive in the least and definitely hasn't been intended for the betterment of the community, I have been wary of this kind of "discussion." See, there's a difference between making suggestions and airing grievances. I interpreted this topic as being in the latter category, and the tone of your reply suggests that there likely is an element of sour grapes in your motive ("brand new policies that many, if not most people don't agree with"). I've studied the meaning that goes into words for most of my life; I usually see right through people's motives. This thread doesn't strike me as the productive effort you claim it is.

However, to the extent we can have a constructive discussion here, then by all means go for it. We could use more of that! Just make sure you take the time to think about what your intentions are, and why you want the "improvements" you do. I've yet to hear a compelling argument for allowing banned users to not be banned in IRC. Why would you want that? Your case so far is that:

1) The forums and IRC are different places (which is irrelevant, because they're both a part of the same community, a community whose common theme is an interest in the Chrono series)

2) There was more discussion going on before we started tightening the IRC rules (which is irrelevant, because much of that extra discussion was trash talk and nosepicking).

Don't be upset with community policies when you can't think of a good reason to oppose them and are left only with your emotional disgruntlement. I too hated to see spirited members of our community like Teaflower get the boot. But she leaked Crimson Echoes, you know? That's bad. Actions have consequences.

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 07:59:17 pm »
Quote
But she leaked Crimson Echoes, you know? That's bad. Actions have consequences.

And by God she leaked Crimson Echoes AFTER the warning went out.  There's no defense and no coming back after that one.

ZaichikArky

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 08:10:56 pm »
You're right. This board is for making suggestions, and I perhaps overstepped to call the topic selfish. In the context of all the griping that's been done in the aftermath of the C&D crisis, most of which hasn't been constructive in the least and definitely hasn't been intended for the betterment of the community, I have been wary of this kind of "discussion." See, there's a difference between making suggestions and airing grievances. I interpreted this topic as being in the latter category, and the tone of your reply suggests that there likely is an element of sour grapes in your motive ("brand new policies that many, if not most people don't agree with"). I've studied the meaning that goes into words for most of my life; I usually see right through people's motives. This thread doesn't strike me as the productive effort you claim it is.

However, to the extent we can have a constructive discussion here, then by all means go for it. We could use more of that! Just make sure you take the time to think about what your intentions are, and why you want the "improvements" you do. I've yet to hear a compelling argument for allowing banned users to not be banned in IRC. Why would you want that? Your case so far is that:

1) The forums and IRC are different places (which is irrelevant, because they're both a part of the same community, a community whose common theme is an interest in the Chrono series)

2) There was more discussion going on before we started tightening the IRC rules (which is irrelevant, because much of that extra discussion was trash talk and nosepicking).

Don't be upset with community policies when you can't think of a good reason to oppose them and are left only with your emotional disgruntlement. I too hated to see spirited members of our community like Teaflower get the boot. But she leaked Crimson Echoes, you know? That's bad. Actions have consequences.

I don't think that I'm opposing community policies just because I have some kind of problem with members being banned. I mean, that's a part of it, but I'm trying to open up an honest discussion.

As of now, my impression is that the mods themselves don't know how to deal with this situation. This happened very recently so someone decided( and I don't know the rationale in the decision or who made it) that the IRC and the forum should be on the same page.

Obviously, I disagree with that. I can get the analogy about leaving the workplace, but CT is not work. We come here on our free time. Obviously what Tea did was a bad thing, but most members agree that she was punished enough. Punishing her from the IRC just seems too strict and I see no good reason to do it. She did nothing wrong in there, so why should she be removed? Her presence really did bring life into it. And it isn't only her, though she is the main example. Some others who frequented the IRC were banned too.

We get that they did a bad thing, and I'm not really trying to argue about that now, but punishing them twice for an action they did once is too harsh of a punishment.

On all the IRCs I have ever been to, this is the very first one where the forums were directly connected in this matter. It goes to show that most IRCs are really in a separate dimension than the forums. They are connected, but very vaguely. Always in the IRC, there are members who really don't post much in the forums and vice versa. They just don't have the same rules, and trying to enforce a universal policy just does not work out....

Ramsus

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 08:26:11 pm »
Simply being banned from the forums won't be followed by an IRC ban, unless you also behave inappropriately in the IRC channel. That is my final decision on the matter, however in this case that means the following people will be unbanned from the main IRC channel:

  • Shadow D Darkman - His was only a forum ban due to his spammy posting behavior. He had yet to do anything inappropriate in IRC.

However, the following people will NOT be unbanned from #compendium:

  • teaflower - teaflower's ban isn't a forum ban, it's a site ban. In this particular case, she's being punished for her involvement in the CE leak.
  • Agasa - The same applies to Agasa.
  • justin - The same here, too.
  • Laith - his ban was due to both his forum and IRC behavior, and as such he's been banned from both.

If I missed anyone, let me know.

BROJ

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 09:03:24 pm »
If I may make a short appeal on tea's behalf:

tea was not immediately removed from the IRC board until quite a bit after her ban on the forums inasmuch as the two punishments have a tangible difference in time. For this I plead autrefois convict, or a dismissal of tea's ban on IRC, on the basis that the two punishments can be construed as separate actions (and further double jeopardy) despite being called a "site ban" (Is she banned from the front page as well? That is more connected to the CC than IRC.) I know double jeopardy has already been plead, but it should be noted that the administration had failed to enforce her ban on IRC in a reasonable, non-tolerant amount of time, and by this, gave up their right, on a legal basis anyways, to ban her from #compendium. I realize this isn't a court of law, but I figured basic constitutional rights would apply here.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 09:11:57 pm by BROJ »

Ramsus

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 09:21:34 pm »
It's been only 2 weeks since her ban was announced, and about a week since we moved servers and could have even begun to actually ban people from IRC. It's only also been a week since the channel ops were trained in banning.

You make it sound like months went by.

BROJ

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Re: IRC Policy??
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2009, 09:45:15 pm »
Yes, but a tolerant atmosphere was present when tea was around for that duration. ZeaLitY demonstrated his ability to actively kick Laith because he was banned, for instance.
Proof:
Quote from: IRC Chat log
*** mode/#compendium [+o ZeaLitY] by ChanServ
*** mode/#compendium [+b *!*44dcaa57@*.com] by ZeaLitY
*** Laith was kicked from #compendium by ZeaLitY [ZeaLitY]
<tea> :o
<kando> lmao
<tea> I take it you napped, Z.
<ZeaLitY> Today BROJ PMed me congratulating me for banning Laith and expressing thanks that IRC wouldn't so fucking stupid now
<Ramsus> The best way to set the tone, however, is by example.
<Jutty> I still don't understand why he was banned.
<Ramsus> Just something to keep in mind.
<ZeaLitY> He's been banned twice before for the exact same thing
<ZeaLitY> He trolls and antagonizes members; I received complaints on the forums and IRC both
<tea> brb
<Jutty> I do think it was because he didn't agree with you and was generally disliked by the "popular kids".
<Ramsus> Actually, he's been banned a few times in the past.
<Jutty> And I don't understand why you would tell someone to kill themselves.
<Jutty> Over an irc conversation.
* Carnivol thought it was a well established fact that internet isn't exactly the place you should put first on the list for "serious business"
<Jutty> I wasn't here for it tho so I only know about heresay.
<kando> ZeaLitY: for the record
<kando> teling someone to kill themselves
<kando> is quite sociopathic
<kando> just a little fyi
<tea> k b
*** ZeaLitY [~ZeaLitY@75.25.70.107] has quit [Ping timeout: 20 seconds]"
Yet nobody did this to tea... Why? I feel no real effort was made to keep tea off #compendium, but apparently for Laith there was.

EDIT: Added entire log, to prevent suspicion.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 10:29:36 pm by BROJ »