Author Topic: The Time Devourer Issue  (Read 4626 times)

Ryouseiken

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The Time Devourer Issue
« on: June 12, 2009, 04:42:27 pm »
Alright guys, so you know the Time Devourer was an extra boss added into the DS Version to somehow link the two Chrono games together, and it was successful and unsuccessful in several ways. However I am bugged by something. The characters in Chrono Trigger are tough no doubt, realistically that is. And although the team in Chrono Cross is pretty strong as well, they don't have that oomph and character that our beloved CT chars do! At least... that is my personal opinion.

Even though it was a lose-lose battle, don't you guys feel that it was a bit crappy how Crono & Friends couldn't beat Time Devourer yet Serge and them could? When I think about it in my head I tend to think Crono > Serge, although again this is more personal opinion.

But what do you guys think? I guess I'm raising the question on who do you think if the strongest protagonist and why Crono and his friends failed to dent Time Devourer while Serge and whatever two friends he brought along were able to finish it like *snaps fingers*
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 05:42:11 pm by Ryouseiken »

Zephira

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Re: What Bugs Me
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2009, 05:03:13 pm »
Crono is definitely > Serge, but Serge had the Chrono Cross. Schala does mention that the Dream Devourer cannot be killed with strength alone, and Serge Co was lucky enough to find a method other than brute strength/magical power to take it down.

Ryouseiken

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Re: What Bugs Me
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2009, 05:05:25 pm »
True but in Chrono Cross, you could still beat the Time Devourer... Dream Devourer... whatever its name is by brute force, at least that was what I did the first time I played CC. That brings up the question on whether or not Serge and his team was strong enough to actually be able to defeat this new form of Lavos when Crono and his team couldn't.

Because realistically as the years passed, wouldn't the Time Devourer have grown even stronger?

Daniel Krispin

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Re: What Bugs Me
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2009, 05:06:11 pm »
Yes, this is an easy question to answer. While, yes, technically, I suppose you can 'kill' the Time Devourer, I don't think that's the 'canon' way of doing it, as it were. The point is, killing it will kill Schala too, and all that sort of thing. The only 'true' way of defeating it is by using the Chrono Cross. And that is something that Crono and his party, for all their strength, did not have in their possession: for all their brute force, it was a more deft and precise weapon that was to prevail.

And the only way that that weapon could be forged was via the splitting of time into two dimensions. Crono simply couldn't accomplish that sort of feat. But Belthesar could.

However, all that said, I'm not certain that Crono is the stronger. After all, does not Serge master Luminaire, Crono strongest technique, at a mere two thirds of his ability? True, he's not an innate sorcerer, as Crono is, but he does seem to have a mastery of elements that could outmatch Crono. As, indeed, he seems to be a superior physical fighter. Crono's ultimate weapon is a Rainbow sword, correct? However, though Serge can use a Rainbow Swallow, he is also weilder of the Mastermune, and in that way has an affinity for that holy sword even as Glenn did. He combines what is apparently sigaldrous power equal or greater than Crono, with physical force and weaponry at least the equal of Glenn, having possession of arguably the most powerful single weapon in the entire Chrono universe. As such, as much as it might be difficult to admit, I think Serge is probably the stronger of the two.

So, to counter what Zephira said, I think it's almost certain that Serge>Crono. Don't let nostalgia fool you, heh.

Ryouseiken

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Re: What Bugs Me
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2009, 05:19:28 pm »
Yes, this is an easy question to answer. While, yes, technically, I suppose you can 'kill' the Time Devourer, I don't think that's the 'canon' way of doing it, as it were. The point is, killing it will kill Schala too, and all that sort of thing. The only 'true' way of defeating it is by using the Chrono Cross. And that is something that Crono and his party, for all their strength, did not have in their possession: for all their brute force, it was a more deft and precise weapon that was to prevail.

And the only way that that weapon could be forged was via the splitting of time into two dimensions. Crono simply couldn't accomplish that sort of feat. But Belthesar could.

However, all that said, I'm not certain that Crono is the stronger. After all, does not Serge master Luminaire, Crono strongest technique, at a mere two thirds of his ability? True, he's not an innate sorcerer, as Crono is, but he does seem to have a mastery of elements that could outmatch Crono. As, indeed, he seems to be a superior physical fighter. Crono's ultimate weapon is a Rainbow sword, correct? However, though Serge can use a Rainbow Swallow, he is also weilder of the Mastermune, and in that way has an affinity for that holy sword even as Glenn did. He combines what is apparently sigaldrous power equal or greater than Crono, with physical force and weaponry at least the equal of Glenn, having possession of arguably the most powerful single weapon in the entire Chrono universe. As such, as much as it might be difficult to admit, I think Serge is probably the stronger of the two.

So, to counter what Zephira said, I think it's almost certain that Serge>Crono. Don't let nostalgia fool you, heh.

Ahh I miss being in these discussion/fan forums, they definitely breathe life into subjects I never even thought of mulling over. Anyways nostalgia I guess that is probably what you could call it, but I guess combining this no-win situation boss fight + the fact that Crono and Marle were probably killed so easily from the Porre invasion (If I am recalling what happened correctly) makes me wonder just who was the better hero or strongest person. :D

Don't get me wrong Daniel, I think Serge is a cool character too. They definitely do a bit more with expression him then they do Crono -although that is to be expected seeing they were using more FMVs and what not and upgraded graphics-, and anyone who uses a swallow for a weapon is pretty epic. I just feel that Crono has more experience under his belt and has strength that Serge otherwise doesn't have... even though that strength proved nothing when he faced the Time Devourer.

On a random and completely off-base note to the topic, S-E are asses for not making a new game or interquel! JP and everyone else who was making Crimson Echoes are pure awesome, 'nough said. >.<. Hahaha.

V_Translanka

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Re: What Bugs Me
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2009, 05:39:08 pm »
Serge uses a Time Egg to confront the Devourer just before they've actually combined because that's what you're supposed to stop from happening: the Devourer from becoming. If you defeat it w/o the CC, then even dead, it comes into existence...

I don't think Serge is more powerful. His Luminaire is obviously not the same Magic that Crono uses: 1) it looks entirely different, 2) seems much weaker & 3) Serge does not have Magic (Crono did because of Spekkio).

Katana>Sharpened Oars

I'm pretty sure there's already a Crono v. Serge topic...>_>

Oh, and Ryouseken, could you change your topic title so it's a little less vague about what you're talking about?

Ryouseiken

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2009, 05:43:01 pm »
Topic title changed, and hm.. so Serge fights the Devourer in a weaker form then what Crono and his team faced?

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2009, 05:51:43 pm »
Hm, well, I think Crono is 'cooler' in most respect, I was just trying to give it a balanced view.

Heh, I'm just watching Deadliest Warrior in the background. Wouldn't it be an awesome one? Crono vs. Serge. Heh.

Actually, they've got too similar fighting styles. I think they would need to pit ones that are different. More swordsman vs. magician sort. Crono vs. Marle? Heh. Katana vs. crossbow; healing vs. offensive magic. etc.

Or, if you want to take it further... Janus vs. Sephiroth. Heh.

Anyway, on the issue, I think Serge is still the superior. Yes, it may be a sharpened oar at first, but that's like a wooden sword for Crono. I think a stone-forged swallow probably has an edge on a Katana. It has the potential for longer range, it's faster... hm, you're right, I think there was a topic long ago on this. I wonder what I thought way back then? Couldn't find any of my commentary, but I think that in terms of weapons, Serge does take an edge with a swallow. As for spellcasting... it's difficult to compare the relative powers of innates vs. elemental users. If we are to go by CE, then I would think that elements might be more powerful, simply because they are earth-based, whereas innate magic ability in humans is due to Lavos.

Well, as it is, I think the question has been answered, that the key to defeating the TD was the Chrono Cross, something that the Seven simply did not have.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 06:01:51 pm by Daniel Krispin »

Celdine

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 06:48:49 pm »
If you defeat the Time Devourer with using the chrono cross, doesn't it just warp off with Schala? It's been awhile since I've beaten CC without using the cross.  :?

As was stated before, killing the Time Devourer without using the cross wasn't the correct way to really finish it off anyway. I kind of wonder if the non-canon ending of just attacking with brute force was just a left over of the removed story arc.

I guess my answer to the whole, Serge vs. Chrono debate would have to be that Serge > Chrono. After all, Serge has the whole "destined one" thing going on while Chrono was just a kid who time traveled to the future and decided to save the world.


Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 06:55:07 pm »
Beating the TD without the Chrono Cross ends the game right then and there.  However, beating the TD with the Chrono Cross yields the actual ending where Schala 'Kid' Zeal finishes her poetic journal entry, promising to find Serge somehow, somewhere, sometime. Thus we are led to understand that the Chrono Cross freed Schala from the TD.

Then we are graced with a semi-surrealistic live action video montage of some form of Schala 'Kid' Zeal in our world looking for Serge, thus bringing the 'somehow, somewhere, sometime' quote full circle.

Chrono'99

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 07:49:47 pm »
If you defeat the Time Devourer with using the chrono cross, doesn't it just warp off with Schala? It's been awhile since I've beaten CC without using the cross.  :?

Yes, it warps off. Some interpret this as the TD dying; however, it could also be that the beating somehow completed its maturation and then it teleported to the outside world to start devouring time.

Celdine

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 07:54:49 pm »
Yeah I remembered the ending beating the game with The Chrono Cross. I guess my whole point was that we don't know that Serge really kills the TD by brute force in the non-canon ending, as we don't know if the TD got sucked into the void of the DBT, or was running off to another part of the DBT (Though it was most likely the TD was just sucked into the void).

To me the new DS ending felt very much like the first time I beat Chrono Cross. The TD wasn't really defeated, and Schala wasn't saved.

I guess that doesn't really support my conclusion in my previous post, just a relevant observation I guess...

EDIT:

Yes, it warps off. Some interpret this as the TD dying; however, it could also be that the beating somehow completed its maturation and then it teleported to the outside world to start devouring time.

This was what I was all I was trying to say. Though you put it much more simply.  :)

You could see the new DS ending as suggesting that since you can't beat the TD with brute force, that this CC ending leads to the TD's maturation.

So the new DS ending wouldn't really reveal that either character or team is stronger than the other in this respect.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 08:02:05 pm by Celdine »

Ryouseiken

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2009, 02:33:10 am »
So its actually, theoretically (big word of the day for me!) possible that defeating the Time Devourer with brute force in CC could have possibly led to the destruction of all the worlds? Aka a bad ending? If that's true then wow, changed my view on fighting it.

Celdine

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2009, 02:45:39 am »
I never thought of it that way myself, but the new DS ending states that TD can't be beaten by brute force.  Therefore, attacking it with brute force and not using the Chrono Cross can only lead to the TD's maturation.

Ryouseiken

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Re: The Time Devourer Issue
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2009, 02:52:27 am »
Dammmmmmmmmn... that's kind of a scary thought, beating the final boss actually leading to your eventual destruction. Why don't they do that sort of tricky crap in games anymore these days? Haha.

But anyways its an interesting topic to touch on. Personally I can't successfully get the Chrono Cross to work because I have horrible as hell timing, and I never get the order right to use it. I should play game again sometime and do that..