Author Topic: Happy Independence Day!  (Read 10680 times)

Lord J Esq

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #75 on: July 09, 2009, 11:32:54 pm »
Optimism is not demeaning. Ignoring the fact that they're still over there, over one hundred thousand of them, enduring an Iraqi summer, just to be able to declare "mission accomplished" is demeaning. It was demeaning when President Bush gave his speech on the Abraham Lincoln, and it's demeaning today. It will continue to be demeaning until our troops actually come home. I fully expect that President Obama will do that, but, even with him in office, it seems to be that he prefers to end the war of a number of years rather than months. Until it's really over, we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

The issue of whether we actually "accomplished" our mission is another question altogether. We sure as hell didn't get the weapons of mass destruction, which never existed. We sure as hell didn't liberate the Iraqi people, who now live under theocratic Islamic rule throughout much of the country. We sure as hell didn't intimidate Iran into abandoning its weapons programs, given that they're building bombs as we speak. Hell, we didn't even succeed in setting up a friendly Iraqi government whose cooperation we will be able to count on in the years to come. What exactly is that we accomplished, other than over four thousand allied deaths and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths, at a price tag in the trillions of dollars?

Truthordeal

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #76 on: July 10, 2009, 12:00:19 am »
Lord J, how many of them are in fact coming home? I realize 2000 or so will end up in Afghanistan, and another God knows how many will still be there, but considering that 12000 have withdrawn completely in this first phase, that's something worth celebrating.

And let's not bicker about the "mission" of the Iraq War. It doesn't matter, because we've already done what we've done over there, good or bad, however you want to debate it. The boys on the ground believe in what we did, or else so many of them wouldn't have signed up for a second tour.

So for the 12,000 that have just pulled out, and for the 100,000 more that will over the next two years, I say "mission accomplished." They've done their part, don't they deserve their recognition for their accomplishments despite being able to come home earlier?

Lord J Esq

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #77 on: July 10, 2009, 12:27:55 am »
And let's not bicker about the "mission" of the Iraq War. It doesn't matter...

Are you kidding me?

Are you really okay with blowing thousands of our lives, hundreds of thousands of their lives, and trillions of our dollars, all for a mission that "doesn't matter"? Why bother with a mission at all next time, then? Perhaps think you would feel differently if your country had been overrun, your way of life upended, your livelihood scrapped, your family members killed, and your civil liberties tattered.

But as it is you don't care, because the mission--whatever it is--is "accomplished" (even though it's not). Why? I can only speculate that you've supported the war for all this time and finally want to be validated in your support of it. Or maybe you just listen to too much right-wing media. Same thing.

Ignorance like yours is a menace to the world. You need to think about the consequences of your beliefs and the implications of your ideology.

The boys on the ground believe in what we did, or else so many of them wouldn't have signed up for a second tour.

Many of the people serving their second, third, fourth, and fifth tours in Iraq did not exactly "sign up" for it. As for those who did, the usual reasons apply and they only occasionally imply support for the war effort:

1) Combat service is a major avenue of career advancement in the military.
2) Our troops are indoctrinated to support their missions and their service regardless of their personal feelings.
3) People have a tendency to support a venture that they feel they own.
4) The military has a notorious ability to attract immature males with power fantasies.

So for the 12,000 that have just pulled out, and for the 100,000 more that will over the next two years, I say "mission accomplished." They've done their part, don't they deserve their recognition for their accomplishments despite being able to come home earlier?

The troops deserve recognition for their service, sure. But that's not "mission accomplished." Those aren't just words. You can't declare something to be over when it isn't over, and you can't declare it to be victory when it obviously isn't. Our troops are mostly not coming home yet. How would you feel if you were over in some nasty desert shoveling shit while a bunch of pricks back home forgot you were still there and decided to throw a victory party for all the shit you have yet to shovel?

Lastly, since you really seem not to get it: Those of our troops that are coming home are not exactly doing so in disgrace, but strategically and democratically we failed in Iraq. That means our troops died for nothing. It doesn't make their service any less noble, but it does make their sacrifice meaningless.

This is no time for a celebration.

Truthordeal

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #78 on: July 10, 2009, 12:33:11 am »
12,000 lives were saved by this phase of withdrawal. That's worth a celebration. Rationalize it all you want.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2009, 12:41:08 am »
Withdrawing our troops is great. I'm not saying they should be made to stay there, and indeed you'd have to twist my words so hard they'd snap in two to make it seem that that is what I am advocating. I'm simply schooling you on your complete lack of interest in what happened in Iraq.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #80 on: July 10, 2009, 12:42:28 am »

Truthordeal

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Re: Happy Independence Day!
« Reply #81 on: July 10, 2009, 01:07:00 am »
Lord J, what are you talking about? Of course I'm interested in the Iraq issue. The fact that I posted that picture shows I'm interested in the matter, probably a bit moreso than the typical user who didn't realize that this was happening.

I didn't want to get into the mission aspect because I really didn't feel like getting into and ideological imbroglio with you or others over why the US is over there. Whatever the reasoning was, it doesn't matter at this point in time because we can't go back and get that money or those lives back. We're there, and that's all there is to it.

I merely wanted to post something with a bit more joy in it since people are actually coming back and this chapter is finally coming to a close.

I certainly didn't mean to make you out as a troop-basher, but I wanted to end it quick before some idiot started on the Iraq War.

And Zeality...