Poll

Having read and understood this critique, do you continue to find the Time Bastard theory unneeding of heavy revision?

Yes, the theory works. (Please explain why.)
6 (33.3%)
No, the theory needs help. (You're welcome to try and offer it.)
12 (66.7%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: April 30, 2005, 06:26:53 am

Author Topic: Debunking the Time Bastard Theory  (Read 27831 times)

Sentenal

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Debunking the Time Bastard Theory
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2005, 05:53:12 pm »
There is no point in having to explain a constant.  Explaining the creation and destruction of timelines has nothing to do with the TBT, your grievances sound like it is coming from there.  Miguel in CC tells you thats how it works, so thats how it works.  Destroyed futures are sent to the DBT, and new ones are created.  We cannot test any of this stuff, so we must rely on in-game evidence, things that we see and do in the games.  And the TBT works with that.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2005, 08:01:41 pm »
More is forthcoming, but the statement that many of our theories don't hold water is out of place, unless I'm misinterpreting the meaning of "holding water." We're dealing with fandom that operates unspokenly on principles of physics observed in our own world. We do tend to write our own version of the Chrono series, but it is strictly operative under these perceived crossed-over principles of science (checked in various places by the Chrono series's own given "science") from our own world and the rules that Masato Kato spelled out himself. The creed is to adhere as closely to the series as possible, like a fine mold, and rather design something made to be consistent with it - rather than forcing it to be consistent with some exterior explanation. Whether our postulating holds Magus's ears to be the result of dark magic exposure or Marle's disappearance to be arbitration by the Entity, they all provide acceptably reasonable and likable (in terms of plot) explanations behind phenomena, one of the crowning achievements being the Dead Sea article. The physics and relations presented therein adhere to other events in the series, and were born out of a large hole in mechanical explanation concerning that region left out by the game's developers. The only critically wounding antagonist of these theories, aside from our own criticism and revision, is the simple fact that it was not dictated to the player and might not have been planned by Masato Kato. This information is barred from our reach, and thus our own writing and attempts to expansively document the series can be fun. Baseless fiction, however - that is what it is intended to not become, and the very reason Articles are held in an esteemed section apart from Features or Fanfiction.

Hadriel

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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2005, 08:40:18 pm »
Which other theories don't hold water, in your opinion?  I think that in general, we're willing to listen.  Imagine all the activity it would generate to do so.

If, in the end, after all the debate is over, the Time Bastard theory has less for it than against it, it could be discarded and replaced with something better.  We're generally a reasonable group of people, even though we're all crazy.

(Admit it.)

Sentenal

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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2005, 11:01:37 pm »
All I've read about "agianst it" is people not understanding it, and people taking it to be the supreme law that governs timetravel, thus demanding extensive how and whys, when all this theory does is explain why there are no duplicate versions of people.

Hadriel

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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2005, 11:24:05 pm »
What I believe he's requesting falls into the realm of a revised temporal framework.  All we know absolutely for certain in Chrono is the following:

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Linear time is defined as the progression of events on a timeline t defined from zero to a currently unspecified maximum, with zero corresponding to the Big Bang.

Time Error is defined also as a causal relationship, but Time Error is instigated from a point p on timeline t, where p is the point at which time travel first occurred and x is the elapsed time since that point.  Mathematically, it is expressed as x+p for any x-value greater than zero.  From what we've seen in the series and in real mathematics, time is constant, i.e. dt'/dt = ~1 when relativistic speeds are not being exercised.

The set of points s on timeline t is not always constant, and can be changed by time travelers to other values, possibly altering their place on any orthogonal axis that may exist.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

We can extrapolate from that, if you'd like.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2005, 11:48:06 pm »
Yeah, we're crazy. I'm going to go through the thread, but I would first like to offer that Time Bastard doesn't specifically interfere with the Crono's cat point. Rather, it would fall under the principle named 'Flow Theory,' which dictates that time flows in a linear fashion and is a rudimentary form of Leebot's "Time Error" idea. Time changes only after time traveler's do the deed and invoke change; the future is not written, and the world is tanget to the observation of the traveler's. This would make it impossible for the cat to travel back as a result of the earlier quest, unless we invoked predetermination, fate, etc.

I'll get the small stuff first. "Marle: But the future that was supposed to have disappeared is about to be restored" is largely a metaphoric statement, though it is true that the future of Home World, destroyed by Lavos, will probably be almost completely like the Lavos Timeline's future. While this may not be explicitly proved in the game, it's just more likely than the resurrection of a timeline from the Darkness. The difference is thin, though.

Honestly, this statement is not in a tone of annoyance, but the words postulate, theorem, theory, hypothesis, etc. are used loosely around here precisely because we aren't dealing with the real world and cannot evoke the various meanings of those terms beyond "theory," as hypotheses cannot be formed, as they lack the possibility experiments to evaluate them. This protection against detailed, real world physics can be invoked elsewhere, but I think we will be capable of explaining "time" in the Chrono sense. The worst problem with this state of affairs is that the Axioms & Corollaries is intended to align the phenomena of the Chrono series into a single, definitive statement (referencing the best theories designed to fit with the games and themselves perfectly) that can build and support itself. If other theories are represented, they are done so as an aside - ideally. However, the Compendium is still young, and the revision of the A&C article (along with Secret of Nu and Many Mysteries of Magus) simply hasn't been attempted yet due to the long term planning schedule.

Since I am not truly a student of physics or other sciences, besides my own wonderings, I find it fitting that I draw up a rudimentary definition of "time" as it applies to the Chrono series. I'm going to try and avoid entropic definitions and anything else that detracts from the free will spirit. Thanks to Radical_Dreamer, Aitrus, Hadriel and CTCronoboy for assistance with this.

Time is the chronotic, naturally linear, endless flow and recording of the state of the universe; it is eternal, and in its infinite span, is only stablized by the observer as per the Chronopolis person's statement. At any given time, there exists one 'timeline' per a universe, there being multiple universes as proposed in Chrono Cross (called dimensions). As a defense mechanism against paradoxes, nature, when confronted with one who goes against the natural flow of time, and to the person's own view, realigns history according to that person. History forward, in relation to that grand, singular timeline in the linear progression of time is entirely rewritten according to their actions. Traveling forward in time is less complicated, as one is merely moving at an accelerated rate - history and time still occur, but without the traveler's influence. This does not preclude TB, as it works forward or backward; at the original, personal time of the original person's departure, the new person would fall victim to Time Traveler's Immunity/Bastard. As for measuring it, that could be up to anyone. Regardless of how many paradoxes I can invoke in my head about units of time becoming smaller and smaller per the second, it is nonetheless true that as I type this, time is moving forward. Thus, I do not have an answer for units of time, aside from the human second. But it is tangent to the observer even in that regard, no?

Thus, when time travel occurs, an intrinsic memory of the universe is invoked according to the observation of the time traveler, and linear time (as per Flow Theory) becomes dependent on his actions.

The timeline will propagate outward and generate an entire history instantly after the point of alteration. All the other histories will cease to exist, not the matter occupying them. (Hadriel)

As for the mechanism knowing that Serge X is the one to get shunted, I'll allow better explanations on this side of the argument to provide a scientific basis, but one that I will tout is this (and keep in mind that spirits and ghosts do exist in the series, so this is not baseless): it operates on the principle of a unique, identifiable 'soul' within a person. The soul is rooted in the existence of the universe. When a timeline is sent to the Darkness Beyond Time, matter and life forces are merely rearranged as a new state of the universe is invoked. There cannot be two congruent "unique" souls in rooted existence. When one time travels, Time Traveler's Immunity (under this theory) is extended as a universal (physics context, not "expansive" or "all encompassing") checkpoint for his the arrangement of his soul. Whatever new versions of himself that arise because of his meddling with time still have the same life essence; at TTI's invocation, however, it is rearranged, and so on for every instance of his time travel. And when the traveler is ready to return to his life as it was, there is no problem. While his life essence goes through many changes to adhere to his original progression as a person (which is saved forever in TTI), his history is always there, even if it exists "simultaneously." Like Robo, it is the same soul viewed in two contexts of time.

I'll call this the spiritual basis of time (above paragraph only). I'm sure this will follow with other, more scientific explanations for the mechanism that decides who goes to the DBT per Time Bastard.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2005, 11:54:41 pm »
Oh, forgot to mention. For the Compendium having made up its mind, there are still many voices who haven't spoken, each representing their own flavors and views. We'll wait before coming to that conclusion.

Sentenal

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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2005, 01:28:07 am »
Well, this should be fun.  I'm no physics expert myself, but I'll try and lend a hand where I can.  I'll put my 2 cents in for timelines being sent to the DBT...

As per Miguel's statements in CC, history (timeline) is composed of events and choices made by people.  History builds itself up, each event and choice building up, where "building up" means time progressing.  When someone time travels into the past, the time traveler goes down the proverbial choice stack (history, timeline).  Upon reaching the destination, a new event has occured, demanding everything that happens after the point of arrive be new.  This in effect takes away the foundation of the future, separating it from the timeline.  I'll theorize that the DBT is just timelines without fountation, unable to progress, always at a stand still, as per Miguel's statements in CC.  From the point of arrival of the time traveler in the past, new choices and events occur, building themselves a new timeline.

Clarifying my theory on the DBT, and where the new timeline comes from:  The matter of the new timeline would carry over from the unchange portion.  Maybe this is where I disagree with you guys, or maybe I'm not even disagreeing, and just to stupid to recognize it :)

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2005, 10:44:54 am »
Haha, well you are not disagreeing and I'll keep it at that.

Hadriel

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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2005, 08:52:22 pm »
That's really not a very mature thing to say, Cronoboy.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2005, 11:03:35 am »
Wow...so many replies! Give me some time to put together a reply. I (foolishly) thought this would be a done-deal by weekend's end...and only have so much extra time to throw around.

Sentenal

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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2005, 02:23:59 pm »
Heh, getting rid of the Time Bastard Theorm is definately gonna take longer than a week :)  Anyway, we need to get GrayLensman's input on this, since hes the one who came up with most of the laws of time travel on this site.

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2005, 05:08:08 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
That's really not a very mature thing to say, Cronoboy.


How so? I was talking to Sentenal when I said that. I was responding to this:

Quote
Clarifying my theory on the DBT, and where the new timeline comes from: The matter of the new timeline would carry over from the unchange portion. Maybe this is where I disagree with you guys, or maybe I'm not even disagreeing, and just to stupid to recognize it  :)

Sentenal

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2005, 05:27:58 pm »
I didn't take offence to it, so there's no problem on my end...

Hadriel

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« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2005, 01:56:45 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Wow...so many replies! Give me some time to put together a reply. I (foolishly) thought this would be a done-deal by weekend's end...and only have so much extra time to throw around.


It's going to take a lot longer than that to come up with a new framework.  We need the input of GrayLensman and Leebot, even though they'll probably try to kill each other.  My only reservations do not stem from the workability of the hypotheses we make (nobody posting here has the resources or the tech to go out and build an Epoch, even if we knew how) but from the theories themselves -- we might have to extend farther into the realm of theoretical physics than real science has so far in order to truly explain the series...

...so, who's up for creating a grand unified theory in half an hour?