Author Topic: C&D: Director's Response  (Read 24737 times)

FaustWolf

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #105 on: May 13, 2009, 04:13:20 pm »
Rest assured the CE project team is looking at all its options.

FalconHit

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #106 on: May 13, 2009, 04:56:45 pm »
Quote
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

Yeah it really can't, especially when you imply that people working in a creative field should be working for free...

ravenl0rd

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #107 on: May 13, 2009, 05:04:01 pm »

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

Chrono and crew fought for freedom, not for government controlled economies!  Go Chrono!

mav

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #108 on: May 13, 2009, 05:05:46 pm »
Rest assured the CE project team is looking at all its options.
Good to know, FW. I'm just curious though, who exactly do you mean by the "CE project team"? Are you also looking into options, or is it Zeality and Agent12?

FaustWolf

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #109 on: May 13, 2009, 05:53:26 pm »
Everyone on the CE team is keeping in contact and more tangential members like Ramsus and myself are acting in supportive roles as best we can. Though I'm not sure what Darkken's been up to. It's a shame, because you guys haven't had a chance to see his new character portraits yet.

Xshu

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #110 on: May 13, 2009, 05:58:08 pm »
Salt the wound much? :P

FaustWolf

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #111 on: May 13, 2009, 06:02:15 pm »
Oh, sorry. Hahahah! You'll get to see it in video at the very least. Then the wound will really be salted.  :D

RedNeckJiuJitsu

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2009, 02:56:13 am »
Quote
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

Well, you sound like a kid who's lost in Never Never Land, just like every other advocate for socialism and/or anarchy that I've ever talked to/heard/read... But I don't understand how a socialist (and socialism is pro-government control) can advocate doing away with copyright laws... A communist, I could see having that view, but I guess you don't wanna be stuck under that label. Don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate for as little government as possible, but intellectual property is property just like anything else. If you worked your ass off to buy/make something, and you were proud of the effort you put into it, would you just leave it laying around and be carefree when someone came along and took it because there were no legal punishments for taking your property?
As a songwriter, without the legal protections afforded me by copyright laws to give me the possibility of making money from it, I would never put my music out there to be heard by anyone but my friends and family. I wouldn't be able to. *sarcasm* But let's just take from the people who have and give to those who don't to make 'em feel better. */sarcasm*


Chrono and crew fought for freedom, not for government controlled economies!  Go Chrono!

There's a HELL of a lot of difference between having legal protections for the products of one's mind and a government controlled economy. Look at China, where, although they are opening up to a free market, they still have a semi-government controlled economy, yet IP infringement is rampant.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 02:58:37 am by RedNeckJiuJitsu »

Daniel Krispin

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2009, 03:22:14 am »
However, to be restrictive on intellectual property negatively stifiles imitation, which is the very basis of artistic development. If there had been such a strong aura of intellectual property in ancient days, Vergil would have had his ass sued off by the Homeridai. After all, the Aeneid essentially amounts to Homer fanfiction. Or, look only at the joke in the other thread about how Milton and Dante recieve a C&D from God for infringing on Biblical copyrights. The point is, I don't think arts should be viewed as a business.

And before you get all high and mighty about growing up and going to college, take note that traditionally - and I believe this wholeheartedly - Business has absolutely no place in college. So don't go lording it up as though you were some master. The point is, though, that the concept that IP should be free is a philosophical one, not a business one, and in the end no number of courses in the field are going to help you sort through that ethical predicament. What many have pointed out is that SE is well within their rights for doing what they do. Yes, they are, according to the laws, they are. Yet that does not make their actions ethically right. See, there was a time when holding a slave and abusing a slave was not only legal but desirable under the law. Now, are you willing to say that those who abused slaves were within their rights because, under the law codes of the time, they were allowed to do such a thing? See, I think the problem people have with SE's actions is that they have a problem with the codified laws as they are, those very ones to which SE has recourse. And just because it's law, doesn't make it right.

Now I'm not a socialist in mentality. But regarding the arts, I do think there should be more freedom for the sake of development. You say it does not make a corporation evil because they are in it to make money. However, you have made a grave error in making these statements. You are treating the matter as a business fact, assuming a prori that if it is legal under the law it is right. However, to say 'they are not evil' is a moral judgment. And here's the main issue with what you are saying. Those who are objecting are objecting on the grounds of a moral stance that disagrees with the current laws, indeed saying that the laws themselves are morally wrong, hence evil. Therefore your statement that they are not evil because they follow the set laws has no bearing.

Personally, if I wrote something - for writing is more my artistic forte - and published it, and someone without asking took that world or ideas and wrote something of their own without asking, and did something wonderful with it, good for them. I think it would be morally wrong of me to set profit over the good of humanity which is garnered by the addition of a new work of art. The problem we have is that we have set profit to the highest point. Of course, if you are in business, you will almost certainly disagree with me, as maximizing profit is your particular skill... yet important as that might be to the functioning of our society, I cannot help but say that there are more important gains to be made. After all, if profit had not been considered, we'd have been in the Industrial Revolution two thousand years ago. Hero of Alexandria built a steam engine in antiquity, after all. But it was never implimented. After all, there were slaves. Living machines in the view of the law that could be used and abused. It was more profitable to use them rather than some mechanical contraption. The rule of that economic force potentially held back humanity for thousands of years. Likewise the use of sources of energy other than oil. Economics, therefore, while serving the individual profit very well, might have a negative influence on humanity as a whole. The same might be said in a situation as this. While it might be profitable for SE to do what they do, for their own sake, it might diminish the progression of the art, and take something away from humanity. They, in that sense, are hoarding a good that should not belong to them, but commonly to all people.

Could that not be called evil?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 05:08:38 am by Daniel Krispin »

knuck

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2009, 08:19:11 am »
Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs

Happy-Dude

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2009, 09:19:40 am »
Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs

True that. Sometimes, I wonder if things can be as popular as it was during the times where organized institutions didn't exist. Such as the works of musicians (Beethoven, Mozart) and writers (Shakespeare and Homer).

Besides, people can make fanart, fanfiction, and remixes... ROM patching is fanfiction for a video game, no? (It a way parallel to TPB trial; people are just too stubborn to notice the world changing around them -- this time, its not change brought by the corporations and institutions, but rather individuals taking on ambitious tasks.)

placidchap

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2009, 09:37:18 am »
One of the problems is that copyright, as of right now, is the only avenue.  It has a 'monopoly' on intellectual property and as with all monopolies, it is bad for the people.  I just had a philosophy course on Business Ethics (I would have surely used your post for the final exam, without permission no doubt, Daniel) and one of the topics near the end was IP.  There was a fellow who suggested an alternative to copyright, called the "artistic freedom voucher".  While the mechanics of the "AFV" may or may not be sound, the idea of an alternative solution to copyright is appealing.  It doesn't replace copyright but coexists with it.  The AFV would technically be funded by the government for those that apply for the program.  Artists who register give up copyright 'protection' in exchange for support from the program.  People indicate on their tax return who they would like to support (kind of like donations but not quite).  For the people who do not indicate any persons, their support would go to a general fund that would be dispersed evenly to all of those in the currently registered in the AFV program.  People can then freely create derivative works and other stuff that copyright limits.

I probably didn't do the article justice so I attached it for anyone interested.  ( hopefully not copyright infringement :o )  Not to keen on his wherever he got his numebrs from but...

Like I said, I'm not sure on the merits or mechanics of this AFV thing but I can agree that, most certainly, an alternative to copyright should be introduced.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 09:39:26 am by placidchap »

Thought

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2009, 10:38:14 am »
But regarding the arts, I do think there should be more freedom for the sake of development.

The solution is simple; make it so intellectual properties cannot be held by corporations but only by specific individuals. This puts the infringer on the same vague economic level as the infringee, allowing for protective excess to reasonably be addressed in a legal setting. We might feel that SE was punkish for the C&D letter, we might even feel that it was morally improper and legally dubious. But because of the difference in resources they can't be challenged. Consider if it was Kato who sent the C&D, however. Everything would be a little more personal and we might be able to work something out that is agreeable to all parties.

After all, if profit had not been considered, we'd have been in the Industrial Revolution two thousand years ago. Hero of Alexandria built a steam engine in antiquity, after all. But it was never implimented. After all, there were slaves. Living machines in the view of the law that could be used and abused. It was more profitable to use them rather than some mechanical contraption.

I'd argue that if profit had not been considered, we still wouldn't have had the Industrial Revolution, simple because it would have never been worthwhile for individuals to switch over to mechanization. Cottage Industry could have still survived because profit wasn't a consideration. Same with standardization; if there is no economic advantage for everyone to work together, why work together? If everyone was rational, that would work. But then again, if everyone was rational, economics would still work too.

Copyright, in the way it's used today in amerikkka, is wrong. If you disagree you should fuck off and die.
However, for those who aren't 30 year old closed minded faggots who think copyright is "the way things are supposed to be", here is a nice video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs

If we live in a good, decent world, then you are attempting to be satirical. As such, I will assume you are attempting such. Bravo, Mr. Swift.

Besides, people can make fanart, fanfiction, and remixes...

They can, but it is still copyright infringement. Fanfiction, fanart, etc exist in a grey area; it is technically illegal but is seldom prosecuted or even frowned upon. However, there are some IP holders who do aggressively pursue such infringements. The reason for this isn't that they are mean spirited, but rather ignoring copyright infringement can create a legal basis for one no longer having copy protection. The fact that SE didn't send a C&D to Prophet's Guile when it was released would actually help protect the CE team if they had released the game and SE attempted to sue, for example.


People seem to forget that copyright laws are very easy to get around. If you actually ask the owner and get permission, your work isn't an infringement. On a large scale, say with a corporation, that isn't practical, but with individuals it enters the realm of possibility.

knuck

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2009, 11:18:42 am »
A good solution would be to make copyright last a lot less, say, 3 years at most. That would fix a lot of things.
It's easy to fix copyright. However, solutions that coexist with copyright simply won't work, because people are greedy and will always go for copyright. You either have to kill it or change it.

Thought

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2009, 11:22:23 am »
Not really; for starting artists the copyright might expire before they can even get it widely published. Perhaps certain elements of a copyright might start to expire at certain points, but 3 years is far too short.