Author Topic: C&D: Director's Response  (Read 24294 times)

FalconHit

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2009, 05:05:29 am »
Not talking about a new mod, I'm talking about all the greedy content creators who will flee the industry when we reform copyright law the way it should be. I'm talking about making movies, TV shows, music, and games, in place of all the people who were just in it for the money who are gonna leave.

Come to think of it... you're right! Working for free does sound magical...
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 05:07:27 am by FalconHit »

Enigma Outlaw

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2009, 05:45:44 am »
It saddens me to see how many people in various places are still saying "Fuck Square! Release it anyway!" Sure that can be easy to say.....when your not the one with the proverbial gun to your head. The law team at SE have Z and companies names, addresses, ect. If they go ahead and release it anyway or if it gets leaked somehow then things are going to get much worse. The worst part is some people are getting pissed that they won't do it anyway. No offense guys but if this was my game there's no way in hell I'd be willing to burn for CE. Not at the risk of a possible $150K fine and even possible jail time if the situation warrents it.

After a few days to think about it this is the bottom line. For those of you mad at the CE team for not putting it out don't get pissed at them. Yes they spent five years working on it. Yes it was 98% done and about three weeks away from release. However in the grand scheme of things the cons far exceed the pros. At the same time don't fly off the handle at SE. Yes it sucks balls and yes it was a dick move to do it this close (I'm still finding it hard to believe hey only found out about this in the past month or so). However the Chrono Series does happen to be their IP and with that comes the right to defend themself if they feel that there is a misuse/infringement. While I myself feel there is a slim chance a case could be made once again the risk outweighs the gain. At this point the best thing we can do is support the CE team and hope a compromise can be made somehow. Short of that there are different things that can be done without flying off the handle because in the eyes of SE if they see a bunch of idiot kids screaming profanity and cursing them then they have already won. Getting the word spread is a good start. It'll put a little pressure on SE. While it may not change things in the end it will make our voices be heard and hopefully they may get SE to somehow want to come to some sort of deal.

Heh.....on a somewhat related note this sort of reminds me of the Jericho fan campaign about two years ago in an attempt to get CBS to reverse their original choice to cancel the show after the first year. Real shame that despite the efforts succeeding that they set that show up to fail anyway. In any case read up on that fan campaign.....might help get some possible ideas floating about ^_~

Spekkio

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Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2009, 06:16:07 am »
None of this really makes any sense. There is already the precedent out there that it is okay to release a modded version of a 16-bit era game as long as it's in the form of a patch and that you own the actual game itself.

How can they tell you to remove a program like Temporal Flux from the site? I guess with that logic, Action Replay, Gameshark or any other program that modifies a game is illegal and should be banned.

I think that people are just falling into their trap of being scared by the C&D letter and not standing up for their rights. You guys do have rights here and they are being trampled on.

The question is: Does SE know that you did not plan on distributing this as a stand alone game? How do we know what they know?

Take a look at all of the other games out there. There are games like The Sims where there is a ton of user created content and it's legal for people to make these mods. There is no difference here.

There is no legal precedence for them to arbitrarily tell you to C&D.
Agreed. We should stand up and defy the C&D, let them know our rights!

Viva la Revolucion!

Enigma Outlaw

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2009, 07:14:25 am »
Once again......it's very easy to say defy them when it isn't your ass on the chopping block. Forget for a moment that there's user content and custom stuff for other games that gets untouched. Forget all the talk about grey areas and the very slim possibility of fighting and winning. This C&F is a fact. It's confirmed to not be a hoax. With all that in mind answer me honestly Spekkio......would you seriously defy the C&D if this was your game full well knowing the odds are greatly stacked against you and what you stand to lose should a judge rule in favor of Square Enix?

placidchap

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Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2009, 08:35:24 am »
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.

Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

    ``(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological
Measures.--

  (1)

    ``(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under this title
.  The
prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at
the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of
this chapter.  <<NOTE: enacted October 28, 1998.>>

TF helps circumvents the technological measures that control access to the raw data of CT.  I'd say that TF is not all that safe and it is 99% non-BS.

MDenham

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Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2009, 12:18:54 pm »
I am 99% sure that's total BS, I don't think CT has copyright protection.

Sec. 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems

    ``(a) Violations Regarding Circumvention of Technological
Measures.--

  (1)

    ``(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that
effectively controls access to a work protected under this title
.  The
prohibition contained in the preceding sentence shall take effect at
the end of the 2-year period beginning on the date of the enactment of
this chapter.  <<NOTE: enacted October 28, 1998.>>

TF helps circumvents the technological measures that control access to the raw data of CT.  I'd say that TF is not all that safe and it is 99% non-BS.

That's a, uh, novel interpretation of that clause...

KebreI

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2009, 12:38:04 pm »
In 2003 that was revised to no longer apply to obsolete technology.

MDenham

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2009, 12:43:27 pm »
I'd like to propose a vote as to making the next "fan project" sponsored by here be a parody game. :D

placidchap

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2009, 12:58:44 pm »
In 2003 that was revised to no longer apply to obsolete technology.

Alright lets look at that revision then...

"Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive."

So I still think TF is not safe, unless you were looking at something else.

mav

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2009, 01:08:06 pm »
Okay. I'm gonna try to give a full analysis of this situation here, as I see it. I'm not a lawyer, but I just finished up a class on Intellectual Property, the vast majority of which was spent on copyright. I could try to email the professor and see if she'd give me her opinion on it, but I have a feeling it would be about the same as I come up with as I work my way through it here. (Also, I started on this about 4:00 in the afternoon, Central Time in the US, and came back to it about 10:30, and I didn't refresh the page. So, if anyone has said any of what I say in here, I apologize).
Shit, we might just be taking the same class. Anyhow, your post contains possibly the most valid information we've seen yet. Those four factors are literally what the Supreme Court uses to essentially determine "who's right" regarding copyright infringement. I suggest skipping to the end of the spoiler, in case you don't want to read much, otherwise highlight away and see how the four factors apply, in my opinion.

1) Purpose and Character: Well is this commercial or not. It's not commercial, Fair Use is preferred for noncommercial and educational purposes. But does this conform to 107 as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research? Not so much. What is the degree of transformation? How different is CE compared to CT? It has a substantial degree of change, but the purpose and character are virtually unchanged.
2) Nature of Copyrighted Work: The scope of Fair Use is greater for "informational works" that inform or educate, and less for "creative works". The fact that the original work, CT, is creative in nature weakens the Fair Use argument.
3) Amount and Substantiality of Work taken: Is the quality and value of the material copied from the original work "reasonable" in relation to the purpose of copying? Well, the purpose of copying was to create a direct sequel, so it's kind of expected that a large portion of the original work would be taken. This factor not only evaluates the quantity of the work that has been copied, but also the quality and importance of the copied material. A good question to as is whether more work was copied than necessary.
4) Effect Upon Potential Market: The courts claim that unauthorized use is not Fair Use when the authorized use diminishes or negatively impacts the potential sale of the original copyrighted work, interferes with its marketability, or fulfills demand for the original copyrighted work. Oi, this one's a kicker: although CE may cause positive harm (the original benefits from the new work, whether in sales or interest), but this could potentially impact the sales of Chrono Trigger negatively (but wait, there are no more sales of CT! But does CT:DS count). But most notably this interferes with the marketability of CT, and that's why SE is so up-in-arms about this. This disrupts continuity, changes the series, and may even fulfill the demand for the original work: why buy CT when you could just as easily play CE?!

If you read all that was in my spoiler I can basically tell you this: the court doesn't base its decision on one factor. And sadly, it seems like three out of the four factors work against CE rather than for it. Substantial questions that needs to be answered (by a legal expert) are whether CT is still marketable or if CT:DS 's sales play a part in all of this. Don't hope that this goes to court, cause chances are that legality works against us and sympathy is all we have going for us.

cornettheory

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2009, 01:09:26 pm »
I just wanted to pop in and say thanks for everything. I came here with a goal and I was able to help achieve it thanks to this community.

Zealty and Co, I believe that you are handling this in the best way possible. This whole thing is rather unfortunate, and I hope the people at square see how other modding communities work to enhance and educate the game-playing-population, like Valve and Half-Life for example.

Maybe they will come around eventually.

MDenham

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2009, 01:12:56 pm »
Mav, that was so not a spoiler tag.

SPOILER: there is no spoiler tag, but pink's pretty close to unreadable on the background

RedNeckJiuJitsu

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #102 on: May 13, 2009, 01:49:47 pm »
RySenkari - The reason copyright laws exist is so that the creative people who come up with stuff have the possibility of making financial gain from stuff that they spent time, blood, effort and creativity to make. While it's all idealistic high and mighty sounding to say that people should be making creative works for the sake of making creative works and not for monetary gain, here in the real world, it don't work like that. While there would still be some people who would take the time to do it, do you honestly believe that we would get movies or TV shows like we do now if people had to either take time off from honest work or be creative on their own time to be able to film/edit/distribute? Obviously people can make games in their free time, but think about this, the system that the orginal release of CT was designed to run on was obsolete 10 years ago, and it still took the team 5 years to make the game. As a songwriter, I can tell you that while I would be ecstatic to hear one of my songs on the radio, if nobody came and got permission from me and I wasn't getting paid for, it, I would be quite upset, so I can understand SE's perspective. Corporations are in business to make money for their shareholders. Video game companies do that through their intellectual property. That does not make them evil. When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

Mav - If you're in Nashville, then we might just have been in the same class. lol. Anyways, good analysis. I can definitely see those points. My brain wasn't back up to 100% when I was going through my analysis last night to remember some of that. While you're right that educational/commentary stuff is far more likely to be okayed as fair use, non-edu stuff has made it through, so there's a chance that CE could pass the muster to a court, but overall, like ya said, the likelihood isn't very high.

RySenkari

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #103 on: May 13, 2009, 03:27:55 pm »
Quote
When you get old enough to go to college, make sure to take some business courses.

I'm quite insulted. I'm 21 and about to be a college senior. I hate when my radical socialist beliefs make me a pariah, but I suppose it can't be helped.

zarradeth

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Re: C&D: Director's Response
« Reply #104 on: May 13, 2009, 03:35:58 pm »
Just throwing it out there, supposedly-- and I stress supposedly, someone who commented on the Digg article talked with a lawyer about CE and how it would probably be handled in courts.

Quote
stradf
Hi CE,

I had my lawyer confirm it fell under the same legislation as fanfiction. As long as you make no profit or claim ownership of characters, you have all rights to develop the game. Talk to him directly at joseph.karlson - at - karlsonandkarlson.com Tell Frank sent you.

Obviously we can't take this for a fact, you can't really put all your trust in internet comments :P. But he did give a contact info, so we might have an actual professional opinion.


Edit: And digging around on the "Expertise" section of their site. This seems to be the kind of stuff they specialize in.

And for the record I've been a long time lurker and I've been waiting for the CE release for years. This isn't my first time on the forums, just wanted to throw that out there  :).
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 03:40:06 pm by zarradeth »