Author Topic: C&D: Director's Response  (Read 26726 times)

RySenkari

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2009, 10:53:01 pm »
You could just as easily say it with this country song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...

Thing is, I wish they'd hold because I think Square has pocket sixes and we've got pocket jacks.

mav

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gentleman Waiting in the Train Station at Twilight
    • View Profile
    • The RPG Realm
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2009, 10:58:13 pm »
Look we can argue all day about whether Square would go after these people if it was released, and even if the chance is low that doesn't mean they wont. These are people's lives we're talking about. Sure they put years of effort into this game, but they can't put their lives on hold for this, it's just not worth it. Sure people should stand up to things that aren't right, but we're not sitting on a bus, we're not making a social movement, we're not doing anything, we're just assuming that the creators of this game are willing to put their livelihood on the line for this hack.

TheGary

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2009, 11:07:58 pm »
You guys should look up the laws of derivative work.

"In Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc.,[9] the appellate court held that it was a fair use for owners of copies of video games, such as Super Mario Bros., to use Galoob's product the Game Genie to customize the difficulty or other characteristics of the game by granting a character more strength, speed, or endurance. Nintendo strongly opposed Galoob's product, allegedly because it interfered with the maintenance of the "Nintendo Culture," which Nintendo claimed was important to its marketing program.[10] The court held, among other things, that the fair use defense shielded Galoob's conduct. The court said that "a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed. Consumers may use ... a Game Genie to enhance a Nintendo Game cartridge’s audiovisual display in such a way as to make the experience more enjoyable.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.

There's a similar situation to what is going on here. The thing about arguing that you shouldn't risk going to court and wasting your time is dumb in my opinion. Just because it's a hassle to stand up for what is right doesn't mean that you shouldn't do it. That's why they send out these letters because they know that they can scare someone with a threat of a large fine or with a long drawn out court case. There aren't too many people left in this world that will stand up for what they believe in no matter the consequences.

Oh, and this just wouldn't be a victory for one little game hack. Standing up here and fighting back against a big company such as SE and winning would be a big victory for all modders and developers out there. I myself am a small time programmer and I just think that laying down here not only hurts the fans on this board, but every other modder/programmer/developer out there.

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8974
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2009, 11:12:00 pm »
Quote
...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.

And that, in the game modder's mind, is exactly the point. Thank you TheGary.

RySenkari

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2009, 11:13:49 pm »
Even if they win, they'd have to severely disrupt their lives in order to fight it.

Which pretty much sucks, because it biases the system HEAVILY toward the big guy. Square has a legion of lawyers whose very job it is to go to court and argue all day, while for these guys to fight it they'd have to devote their entire livelihood and well being to it and that sucks.

I agree with everyone suggesting that we get the EFF involved. If Zeality and the others can get an EFF lawyer to do everything for them so that they can go on with their lives while the EFF fights for this, that would be awesome.

TheGary

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2009, 11:15:31 pm »
Quote
...a party who distributes a copyrighted work cannot dictate how that work is to be enjoyed.

And that, in the game modder's mind, is exactly the point.

That's why I don't think you guys should lay down here. Ultimately, it's up to the creators. You could just as easily not release it because you don't feel like finishing it. The authors have no obligation to release this game with or without a C&D. I just want to make sure that they at least know that they are basically within their rights to release this game.

Glenn27

  • Guest
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2009, 11:19:39 pm »
Maybe you could try contacting the ACLU for some help.

http://www.aclu.com/

RySenkari

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2009, 11:20:22 pm »
This sort of thing isn't really the ACLU's bag.

KebreI

  • Errare Explorer (+1500)
  • *
  • Posts: 1607
  • A true man never dies, even when he's killed
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2009, 11:31:44 pm »
You could just as easily say it with this country song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

You got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em...

Thing is, I wish they'd hold because I think Square has pocket sixes and we've got pocket jacks.
Sorry but this just made me laugh, good call. :lol:

mav

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1331
  • Gentleman Waiting in the Train Station at Twilight
    • View Profile
    • The RPG Realm
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2009, 11:36:59 pm »
You guys should look up the laws of derivative work...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Galoob_Toys,_Inc._v._Nintendo_of_America,_Inc.
...
Heh, I posted these same exact things earlier, nice to see we share the same thoughts. And you are correct, at least about it being up to the creators of the game. Again though, the thing is that the concept of derivative works and the precedent set in the Galoob Toys case will only help if Square lets the CE team offer up their side of the argument or if this goes to court. The former is the likelier of the two, but I'm not sure whether that's even happening...

Glenn27

  • Guest
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2009, 12:37:32 am »
"Evil wins when good men do nothing."



And to Falcon....

"Glenn27 can you shut up? Honestly?

Do you even know how the real world works? You're spouting off about Dreams and Zeal and junk while people who were creating something for all of us are contemplating the idea of getting their lives ruined. FOR A VIDEO GAME! You haven't put in any actual effort to help with the hack, and the lawsuit wouldn't effect you in anyway. Yet you selfishly ponder the idea of someone releasing it on their own without the consent of the creators of the project. Why? Because you want to play it, you've been going to their website everyday, and you've been checking the compendium forums for an update, so you can effortlessly click with your grubby little fingers and reap the rewards.

To say that it would be some kind of action against Square Enix is complete and utter bull. You and everyone else here whining and begging to anyone on the team who will listen to release it anyway is just out for themselves. So THEY don't feel like they've wasted their time watching and waiting, rather than actually HELPING. Maybe if all the people coming out of the wood work now too support them helped them in the beginning and actually went out and learned how to sprite or make maps it would've been released already. But you didn't, you just waited."

First off, I haven't been coming here every single day- I just found out about this project. (and on a physical note my fingers are neither little nor grubby)  So I've hardly "waited."


"This isn't a movie where good triumphs over evil, because there is no evil here. It's two sides of grey protecting themselves. Chrono Trigger is owned by SE, if ANY kind of mod or hack is released it is a FAVOR of them onto us. Is there anyone thanking the legal and production staff at Square when a fan work gets successfully released? No. Like a previous poster said, if I had put as much time as they did into the original Chrono Trigger I wouldn't want anyone tampering with it either.

  Grow up, get over it. It's a game, a video game, if THAT is the thing you are most passionate about, out of everything else that could be in your life, you need to seriously sit down and sort your life out. To the entire Crimson Echoes team, and all other dev teams that have had projects halted because of current events know that 100% of the logical thinking people who live in the real world support your decisions completely and whole heartedly."

You've never understood having your own personal dreams, do you?  I have had my own- an important one which I have lost and new ones which I pursue to accomplish.  The idea of someone crushing another person's dream sickens me, and I'd hate to have someone let their dream be taken from them.

This is much MORE than just for my own personal enjoyment.  This is about their dreams and the rights of fans to create mods.  Even if the developers think sacrificing their dreams is the best thing to do, in the end it won't be and they will regret it for the rest of their lives.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 01:35:22 am by Glenn27 »

Agent 12

  • Moderator
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2572
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2009, 12:52:53 am »
Oh geez.......

OK guys I thought I did a decent job of answering this in my post but I guess not. 

Doing NOTHING?  Are you serious???

In less than a week me and Zeality have managed not only to save our own asses but also to save the compendium which has been collecting everything that is everything about the chronoverse for way longer than CE has been around.  We've taken a game that was known by a handful of people and turned it into a symbol of the little guy against a corporation that is known by thousands of people on some of the most popular social media websites that I know of as well as tons of smaller websites.  You think that there isn't someone at Square's headquarters right now looking at the damage we have done and wondering what to do???  Not to mention some stuff that is going on behind the scenes that we certainly aren't going to talk about on a public forum.

I ask this how many of the people complaining about how we have handled this situation have called the number on the C & D letter and complained?  Please stop complaining about something where you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.  I'm sorry that I'm not willing to fight a huge multi million dollar corporation for a rom hack.  We are handling this the best way we know how without sacrificing anyone.

--JP

FalconHit

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 51
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2009, 01:05:26 am »
Glenn27 can you shut up? Honestly?

  Do you even know how the real world works? You're spouting off about Dreams and Zeal and junk while people who were creating something for all of us are contemplating the idea of getting their lives ruined. FOR A VIDEO GAME! You haven't put in any actual effort to help with the hack, and the lawsuit wouldn't effect you in anyway. Yet you selfishly ponder the idea of someone releasing it on their own without the consent of the creators of the project. Why? Because you want to play it, you've been going to their website everyday, and you've been checking the compendium forums for an update, so you can effortlessly click with your grubby little fingers and reap the rewards. To say that it would be some kind of action against Square Enix is complete and utter bull. You and everyone else here whining and begging to anyone on the team who will listen to release it anyway is just out for themselves. So THEY don't feel like they've wasted their time watching and waiting, rather than actually HELPING. Maybe if all the people coming out of the wood work now too support them helped them in the beginning and actually went out and learned how to sprite or make maps it would've been released already. But you didn't, you just waited.  This isn't a movie where good triumphs over evil, because there is no evil here. It's two sides of grey protecting themselves. Chrono Trigger is owned by SE, if ANY kind of mod or hack is released it is a FAVOR of them onto us. Is there anyone thanking the legal and production staff at Square when a fan work gets successfully released? No. Like a previous poster said, if I had put as much time as they did into the original Chrono Trigger I wouldn't want anyone tampering with it either.

  Grow up, get over it. It's a game, a video game, if THAT is the thing you are most passionate about, out of everything else that could be in your life, you need to seriously sit down and sort your life out. To the entire Crimson Echoes team, and all other dev teams that have had projects halted because of current events know that 100% of the logical thinking people who live in the real world support your decisions completely and whole heartedly.

TheGary

  • Iokan (+1)
  • *
  • Posts: 11
    • View Profile
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2009, 01:23:05 am »
Agent, do you have like a form letter/post or something that maybe we could copy and post in the different communities that the rest of us are a part of?

Glenn27

  • Guest
Re: C&D: Directors' Response
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2009, 01:27:21 am »
"In less than a week me and Zeality have managed not only to save our own asses but also to save the compendium which has been collecting everything that is everything about the chronoverse for way longer than CE has been around."

So that's it?  You'll sacrifice your hard work and your dreams just for self-preservation?  You're not going to take a stand for what's right?  Can you really let your Dreams go that easily just like that?  Has SE's corporate, bullshit, overly threatening manner gotten to you that bad?  If that is your mentality then your mentality is like that of a kid in high school who gets bullied all the time but is afraid to stand up for himself out of fear of being hurt, or like that of a slave who fears the master's whip should he attempt rebellion.  Nat Turner may have died but by golly, he did the right damn thing- and if you were in his position would you follow his path or accept slavery?


You know that SE's trying to put the squeeze on you guys as much as possible to scare you right?  And the worst-case scenario isn't going to come true- BECAUSE IF IT DID IT WOULD BRING GREAT CONTROVERSY TO SE's REP IN THE GAMING COMMUNITY.  This alone so far only registers a blip if all you do is surrender.

Don't be so afraid of them, despite their asshole lawyers speaking with forked-tongues as much as possible to scare you, they're not as omnipotent as they make pretensions of being



"We've taken a game that was known by a handful of people and turned it into a symbol of the little guy against a corporation that is known by thousands of people on some of the most popular social media websites that I know of as well as tons of smaller websites." 

If you guys fight for what's right, then it's truly a symbol.  But if you cave in then it stops being a symbol.  It'd be like if Rosa Parks complied with the officers who forced her to give up her bus seat then told herself, "well, at least what I did will be a symbol," for the rest of her life.

If you guys give up now then it won't be a symbol for anything except for the little guy once again bowing down to some massive, soulless corporation.



"You think that there isn't someone at Square's headquarters right now looking at the damage we have done and wondering what to do???"

You think Square cares about this?  Of course not, so long as 50 million people buy the next Final Fantasy they could give two farts less.  They likely view you as little more than an annoying insect to be crushed, because they don't want fans to mod their work if more than a few thousand will enjoy it.  So long as you guys submit and deny your work to create fan-mods, they could care less.  The more you submit the less of interest you are to them.

They're probably laughing their asses off or are pleased with the level of subservience their hateful, dishonest threats have engineered.

If you really wanted to make SE squirm and feel the heat then you (or someone else) would have to give this mod the right to exist which legally (Game Genie) IT POSSESSES DESPITE WHAT BULLSHIT SE LAWYERS ARE DRILLING INTO YOUR HEADS.


"I ask this how many of the people complaining about how we have handled this situation have called the number on the C & D letter and complained?" 

Now that you have mentioned this, I will call them- that is a great idea, thank you.  I had not thought of that before but now that you mentioned it I gladly will do so.  You should do a news post on the front of the site asking everyone to call them if you desire our support in this manner, if you so wish to.  Ask us to do anything and we'll happily support you.


"Please stop complaining about something where you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.  I'm sorry that I'm not willing to fight a huge multi million dollar corporation for a rom hack.  We are handling this the best way we know how without sacrificing anyone."

Mark my words- years later, when you've turned your back on all your work, which has been reduced to ashes while SE goes back to releasing certain games (FX 10-3) only in Japan and acting like dicks all-around, you're not going to be happy about this.

You can try to trick yourself into talking about how your 5 years of destroyed work was briefly a "symbol" on some gaming sites and praise yourselves for avoiding the wrath of Kahn/SE and keeping a site safe (whose information could all easily be copied and transferred elsewhere), but deep down inside you'll never be able to forgive yourselves if you allow SE to steal so much of your lives and your dreams and yourselves away from you.

What did Chrono and his friends do when they saw the horrible future?  Did they simply accept it as too impossible a task to try and change?  No, the fought to change it- and they accomplished their goals.  It was tough, it was dangerous but by golly, they did it.

The above WILL be your dark future someday, but is that the future you really want?  The choice is yours if you wish to follow in the path of Chrono and his friends to change it.  Fight the future!  Change it!  Do not simply accept it because that is the easiest path, you can change it and you should!