Author Topic: Cease & Desist Letter  (Read 176883 times)

RySenkari

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #720 on: May 26, 2009, 03:41:37 pm »
Well, to paraphrase a rant from when FOX misused the law to block the Watchmen release:

"And, when the law is on your side, it’s easy for you to argue that I don’t have a leg to stand on and, at the end of the day, you’re right. You’re a business, and you made what is perhaps the smartest move a business could make. You struck at the last second, and you struck hard with a huge $150,000 threat that will dissuade any of the game's editors or beta testers from even thinking about leaking what they have done They’ll have to destroy the hack, and any trace of the hack, and browbeat anyone who disagrees because it's their asses and lives on the line and you'll ruin them if the hack is leaked.

But I don’t give a shit about the law right now, (or, hey, while we’re at it, ever). When it comes down to it, Chrono Compendium worked hard on this hack. All of the hackers and writers and sprite editors worked hard on it. This is a hack that fans have been praying and begging for for years."

There you go. I don't give a damn rat's butt about the law. Ever.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #721 on: May 26, 2009, 04:22:14 pm »
You saying that using copyrighted material is okay in your eyes, but guess what? Many people do not think like you do so that opinion (as well as any opinion) is invalid.

And equating using ROM data to the civil rights movement...nice touch. Let me guess, since I agree with what Square did (in practice, not personally to be clear) that must make me a racist or some sort of government supporting fatcat, dangling the Sword of Damocles on those poor, unheard masses of would-be programmers too?

I think RySenkari is arguing on a higher level of abstraction than you are. Many legal questions are in fact decided amid some impressively mundane contexts. I can see where he's coming from. Intellectual property law is really screwed up, and there's a lot of injustice that results--most seriously when it comes to the flow and use of information. I don't agree with his tone, but, then again, I've taken that same tone myself before, so I'm not the best person to be critical on those grounds. I wouldn't structure my argument the way he does, nor would I draw all the same conclusions, but I definitely think he has a good point with strong merits that are being obscured by his style of delivery.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #722 on: May 26, 2009, 04:25:55 pm »
There you go. I don't give a damn rat's butt about the law. Ever.

That's the stupidest thing I've read all week. You'd be dead in a year without "the law," and life as we know it wouldn't last the month. Either you don't know what you're talking about, or you do and you hate yourself.

Either way, you forfeit your standing to talk about legal issues if you're not willing to acknowledge the foundations of the rule of law.

RySenkari

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #723 on: May 26, 2009, 04:29:59 pm »
Quote
Either way, you forfeit your standing to talk about legal issues if you're not willing to acknowledge the foundations of the rule of law.

Bullcrap. I disagree with the rule of law, so I don't acknowledge it in this case.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #724 on: May 26, 2009, 04:34:06 pm »
Then you're an anarchist, and the fact that you're on a website like this makes you a hypocrite--the least of many offenses, I suspect.

RySenkari

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #725 on: May 26, 2009, 04:35:42 pm »
I'm a copyright anarchist, yes. Maybe not on things like murder and such, but on copyright definitely yes. I'm sick of seeing corporations bullying people and issuing C+D orders right and left. This incident has been the last straw to push me toward radicalism.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #726 on: May 26, 2009, 04:45:01 pm »
I'm a copyright anarchist, yes. Maybe not on things like murder and such, but on copyright definitely yes. I'm sick of seeing corporations bullying people and issuing C+D orders right and left. This incident has been the last straw to push me toward radicalism.

Fair enough. You do yourself no good by using the language that you're using, however. You can't be talking about civil rights one minute and then denying the premise of the rule of law in that same category the next. There are any number of ways you could change your vocabulary to get your meaning across more clearly, but as it is you are consistently not being interpreted correctly.

I'm not gonna disagree with you on the sorry state of intellectual property law, but neither am I going to agree with you that we should strike down that whole area of law altogether and replace it with nothing. That would bring ruin, and not just to large corporations, but to everybody. Ownership is probably the single most important aspect of civil stability and individual prosperity, on a very long list of the myriad socioeconomic elements which comprise society. If you know anything about history, you know how precarious our freedoms and comforts are. From the standpoint of ordinary people--a majority group of humans to which you almost certainly belong--knocking down the law would be worse than biting off your nose to spite your face. It would be like ripping out your heart to spite your desires.

You obviously have the zeal to move forward on this topic, but you really need to think about what you're saying before you say it, because as it is now...you don't know what you're talking about, or else you're not saying it right. Probably both.

RySenkari

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #727 on: May 26, 2009, 04:48:36 pm »
Eh, this whole incident has gotten me really pissed off, so I've been saying a bunch of stupid stuff. I hope this whole situation works out so that everyone gets to play CE, but the less likely that's become, the angrier I've gotten. I know a lot of people around here don't want me staying pissed at S-E, but I think I'm going to resent them for this for a long time to come no matter what anyone says.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #728 on: May 26, 2009, 05:14:17 pm »
Eh, this whole incident has gotten me really pissed off, so I've been saying a bunch of stupid stuff. I hope this whole situation works out so that everyone gets to play CE, but the less likely that's become, the angrier I've gotten. I know a lot of people around here don't want me staying pissed at S-E, but I think I'm going to resent them for this for a long time to come no matter what anyone says.

I for one welcome the ongoing enmity. Square Enix will not change its ways until forced by a court, a legislature, or a huge wad of money. That's how progress happens. The villains usually have the law on their side, until suddenly they don't anymore.

The people who defy the big media companies are the ones who will eventually trigger the events which bring about better copyright laws. I recall that it was you who said, earlier in this thread, that the CE team is a bunch of cowards for complying without a fight. Maybe there was some of that. But it was a pretty straightforward strategic decision. Not every single injustice can be a trigger for change. This time, the ingredients simply weren't there. All of us at the Compendium management and everyone on the CE development staff disagree with SE's legal reasoning, but it's definitely a gray area. The development team stood an excellent chance of losing any suit, for lack of money, for lack of solid legal arguments, and for lack of friendly legal precedent on this matter. Their only real mistake was publicizing the game ahead of release. Had it been released, and then followed up with the marketing blitz, there would have certainly been a C&D letter, but probably no lawsuit, because the development team would have complied, but the game itself would have already been out there for the world to pirate as it saw fit.

The development team got a firsthand taste of the story of Icarus. They knew there would be a C&D, but they had not truly grappled with the ramifications of it. In all my time here, I have consistently counseled "serious" fan projects to stay underground. No one seems to take me seriously. Oh well. Maybe this will change things. One thing is for certain: Square Enix has won this round decisively, but, if the thinking of the fan community evolves as a result of this disaster, then the next feature-length fan game will be released under the radar, and thus the long struggle for intellectual property law reform will be that much farther along. I expect the video game industry, and SE in particular, to "get it" much sooner than, say, the music industry--which has been eviscerated by its own trade group--but for that to happen there will have to be compelling fan works out there, accessible to the world, and thus able to demonstrate their value. If you're looking for a show of contrition from the development team, they would certainly tell you that they regret being so visible with the game prior to its release, which undermined their ability not only in releasing a feature-length Chrono game, but to participating (productively) in advancing the relationship between game companies, fans, and fan projects.

Being an ideologue isn't very useful. Strategically, the dev team undermined their own ability to put up a serious challenge to Square Enix by being so loose with the game prior to its release. Once the C&D was sent out, it was already too late to defy it. Any show of resistance would have, very likely, cost JP (and potentially ZeaLitY) a lot of money--possibly in court judgments, but certainly in legal expenses defending in court.

RySenkari

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #729 on: May 26, 2009, 05:22:22 pm »
I didn't say they were cowards, although I did say that someone will eventually have to stand up and fight no matter what the costs. It won't be CE, obviously, but possibly some radical or someone who's going through a bunch of tough times with nothing to lose. Maybe we should start encouraging people with terminal cancer to start working on game mods...

LinkSlySora

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #730 on: May 26, 2009, 05:45:02 pm »
I know I'm a little late to the button here, but the topic RySenkari brought up about Civil rights is comparable to this situation, although, that situation was far more serious. A main difference is, that law was wrong, this one, is more outdated and/or misunderstood.

I think SE was pre-emptive in the idea of banning this game, but none of us know what they were really thinking when sending the letter. From their prespective, sending it was just as logical to them, as logical it is to us for them to not send it..... if that makes sense.


Not sure what the purpose of this was, to bring up something else to talk about ^.^? Maybe there is a bright side to this, maybe this means SE is working on another Chrono game, maybe that is why they are so paranoied  :shock:. Doesn't really help those who were waiting/working on the game for so long though, but still sometihng to consider.

blarg

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #731 on: May 26, 2009, 07:52:18 pm »
Quote
I expect the video game industry, and SE in particular, to "get it" much sooner than, say, the music industry--which has been eviscerated by its own trade group--but for that to happen there will have to be compelling fan works out there, accessible to the world, and thus able to demonstrate their value

Doesn't the video game industry as a whole already "get it" though or else the thousands of fanfiction, music remixes, flash videos and every other hack or fan game besides this one wouldn't exist without getting sued over.   How else would card sagas wars be able to get away with what they are planning so far despite their youtube trailer getting over 175 000 views. Nintendo has to know about the billion mario hacks out there but nothing is done.

I still think the only reason this one got hit was because SE did not do their research and mistook it for something everybody would agree they should have a problem with and that if CE were released right now they would not be sued. But I understand it is easy to say that and hard to do so I don't blame anyone for not doing that.

I don't think a fan work being of compelling value would help the legal situation change at all. How good would a game have to be in order to advance the struggle for intellectual property law more than anything released so far?


Dark Serge

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #732 on: May 26, 2009, 08:07:54 pm »
So I emailed Squeenix and telling them I planned on making a huge Chrono fangame (I have no such plans (yet), but I wanted to check this out) and asked them how free I would be to use their copyrights. Well these dudes are even worse then I thought.

Thank you for contacting SQUARE ENIX Customer Support,

All content of our games is copyright SQUARE ENIX Co., Ltd.  We regret to inform you that we do not grant permission to individuals to use any copyrighted content.  Because we receive numerous requests, our policy is to decline any use of our copyrights. We currently are not granting permission to any one except our own business partners.

The Private Policy of SQUARE ENIX Co., Ltd./SQUARE ENIX Inc. stating the use of materials, is as follows:

All game materials, including, but not limited to, their design, text, graphics, screen shots, files are copyrighted by SQUARE ENIX Co., Ltd.  All rights reserved. Any other use of materials of our games -- including any commercial use, reproduction for purposes other than that noted above, modification, distribution, or republication -- without the prior written permission of SQUARE ENIX is strictly prohibited. No materials of our games may be used on any other product, published, or otherwise performed in public.

We hope that this information has been of some assistance and apologize for any inconvenience this has caused.

Thanks,
Neil- SQUARE ENIX Customer Support
www.square-enix.com


So yeah, basically you can't use any of their stuff at all, nothing, nada, or they have reason kill your project.

LinkSlySora

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #733 on: May 26, 2009, 08:18:52 pm »
That was a very interesting idea Dark Serge, and I believe that helped many of us understand more about the situation.

But it does beg the question, do all companies have such policies. Other fan games and hacks and such that were made using materials like those listed from another company, such as nintendo, enforcing them as much. Not bashing SE or anything, just bringing up a topic to consider. Sorry that is kinda hard to understand, couldn't think of a way to simplify it. If you don't understand, please post and I'll try to rephrase it.

blarg

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #734 on: May 26, 2009, 09:13:01 pm »
ya I'd like to see how other companies would respond to the same letter could you do that Dark Serge?

lol at them copy writing screenshots. they have a lot of work to do if they wanna get all of those off the internet.