Author Topic: Serge = Janus Theory  (Read 28709 times)

Ryuusai

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Serge = Janus Theory
« Reply #150 on: July 07, 2005, 02:45:39 am »
No even the Greeks had legends about stuff that could kill the gods.

Salvadeiro

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« Reply #151 on: July 07, 2005, 02:47:56 am »
They could only kill Demi-Gods, since they were only half immortal.  Prometheus was a fully mortal god who had to suffer the same fate everyday, chained to a mountain for giving the humans fire, and live a painful life.

Zaperking

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« Reply #152 on: July 07, 2005, 02:52:10 am »
Prometheus was a Titan....

Salvadeiro

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« Reply #153 on: July 07, 2005, 02:53:23 am »
But a God, he was born of two gods.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #154 on: July 07, 2005, 05:13:39 am »
Firstly, as to Odin dying in Ragnarok, yes, he does. The Fenris Wolf (and I much prefer this less common spelling of the name) devours him, but he is avenged by his son Vidar the Silent. But whoever said it is wrong in saying that all perish in Norse: Baldur, Hodur, Magni, Modi, Vali, Vidar, and a man and a woman, at least, outlive Ragnarok and see the new earth... or so says Odin's vision of the future.

Quote from: ZaperKing
When I said "Stated Gods" I ment like entitys. The Dragon God's are not.

And I'm pretty sure all Greek God's were immortal forever, and could not even die by a weapon. Norse God's were capable of dying. The Greek's had the river Styx to bathe in (like Achellies, but he was the Son of a God and a human, so he had to be bathed in it to have immortality). The God's were born with immortality, but I'm just guessing that only their parents could destroy them, in other word's the Titans and Kronos, but even then they still did not die, only Zeus had to kill Kronos and then Hades/Posideon came out.


Norse... yes and no. Baldur died, as did his brother Hodur to Vali the Avenger, it is true, but were they not fated to be amongst the few to arise after the fiery doom of Ragnarok? The others who actually die, as opposed to simply being cast into Helheim for the ages of the world, do so in Ragnarok itself, which is an extrodinary circumstance where most everyone, gods, men, and giants, die.

As for Akhilleus (this is my preferred way of spelling it, as it is most true to the actual way), I think, if I remember right, he was never immortal in Homer. He was simply the greatest warrior whom none could overcome, and it took later writers to invent the whole tale of immortality, and his dip in the Styx - by whom the Gods swear unbreakable oaths - which bestowed upon him his charméd life.

As for the immortality of the Greek gods, see the next reply of mine.

Quote from: Ryuusai
No even the Greeks had legends about stuff that could kill the gods.


As far as things and weapons, none per say that I can think of. The nearest is the very sickly by which Kronos castrated his father Ouranos, usurping his place of heavenly command, but this did not utterly destroy Ouranos. Likewise Zeus overcoming Kronos did not destroy him, and some even have Kronos being the lord of paradise, in exchange for his heavenly throne. Atlas, also defeated, bears the world on his shoulders. And so forth. You see, the gods are in command of death (Thanatos, or the Grim Reaper as we would know him) and the underworld Hades, or more properly the realm ruled over by Hades, which consists of several areas. What these are vary from myth to myth, but some take an anvil falling from Olympos to take seven days to fall to the earth, and from earth to Hades seven days, and from Hades to the pit of Tartaros seven days. Thus Tartaros is the deepest, and that is hell, where the evildoers are punished, and some of the Titans (the 'Strechers') imprisioned. But as I said, no weapon I can think of per say can do it, save that in some myths the gods may indeed be harmed.

Homer, however, does allow for the gods to be injured, yea even by mortal heroes. Diomedes, near my favorite of the warriors of the Trojan war, wounds first Aphrodite, spilling her blood (that is, ichor, for she is a goddess), and later that bloodthirsty butcher Ares himself. In fact, when Aphrodite complains about Diomodes and his arrogance in injuring her, she is told that at whiles all of them have been in danger of injury, and it even seems that Ares was at one point imprisioned in a bronze pot (or something like that), and was in danger of death. Interesting, indeed.

Overall, though, one must remember that the Greek myths are not one set saga. Rather, they are the collective tales of many disparate regions and peoples over a period of almost a thousand years. Not only do they change, but different areas have different views (who was Zeus' wife? Hera? Metis? Leto? Most modern retellings make them successive, to clear the confusion that comes about from these different regionalities.) So it cannot be conclusively known how immortal they were, as different areas and times have different ideas.

And finally, as for Prometheus... yes he was a Titan. But one must remeber, what makes a Titan, and what makes a god? Are not the Olympians the sons and daughters of Titans? Titan simply means 'Stretcher', for to Ouranos, when he was usurped by Kronos, it seemed that his offspring were over-reaching their power and authority. Thus that generation of gods were known as Titans, but in inherent make-up, they are no different than each other. All these, whether it is Hades or Zeus or Erebos or even Styx, they are all gods of a similar sort, and almost always related.

By the way, Prometheus means 'forethought'; his brother's name, Epithemus, means 'after-thought'.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #155 on: July 07, 2005, 05:38:35 am »
Quote from: Ryuusai
No even the Greeks had legends about stuff that could kill the gods.

I think Greek gods are mortals, not mortal as in "human", but mortal as in "not immortal"). They can die but they don't just because they eat and drink stuff that rejuvenate them (ambrosia and nectar).

Ryuusai

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« Reply #156 on: July 07, 2005, 11:28:28 am »
Well I don't study myths.  I just read something about Greek gods and O thought I saw someting about them being able to die.

jotabe1789

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« Reply #157 on: July 11, 2005, 09:32:24 am »
From what i know, Greek Gods cannot be killed: Think of Cronos, devouring his children because he was prophetized that they would overthrow him. He ate them all except for Zeus, who was saved through trickery by his mother. When the Zeus came back to wage war on Cronos, he opened his father's belly and his brothers came out fully formed.
The titans who opposed Zeus, couldn't be killed either, so they were banished to the Tartarus (Hell) in life.
Even Zeus, while being sort of married with Metis, he was prophetized his son with her would dethrone him. So he tricked her, already pregnant, to become a fly and swallowed her. Metis went on alive inside of him, giving him advice. But 9 months after, Zeus began to have terrible headaches, and they opened his head to relieve him. From the whole, Athena sprouted. So, even a godly embryo is hard to kill lol :D

As for Prometheus, thankfully his punishment was not eternal: good old Hercules freed him. ^_^ Prometheus didn't deserve such punishment.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #158 on: July 11, 2005, 06:27:36 pm »
'Have patience, my child, and endure it, though you be saddened.
For many of us who have our homes on Olympos endure things
from men, when ourselves we inflict hard pain on each other.
Ares had to endure it when strong Ephialtes and Otos,
the sons of Aloeus, chained him in bonds that were too strong for him,
and three months and ten he lay chained in the brazen cauldron;
and now might Ares, insatiable of fighting, have perished,
had not Eëriboia, their stepmother, the surpassingly lovely,
brought word to Hermes, who stole Ares away out of it
as he was growing faint and the hard bondage was breaking him.
Hera had to endure it when the strong son of Amphitryon
struck her beside the right breast with a tri-barbed arrow,
so that the pain he gave her could not be quieted. Hades
the gigantic had to endure with the rest the flying arrow
when this self-same man, the son of Zeus of the aegis,
struck him among the dead men at Pylos, and gave him to agony;
but he went up to the house of Zeus and to tall Olympos...'
Homer's Iliad, Book 5, lines 382-398.

I rest my case.

jotabe1789

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« Reply #159 on: July 11, 2005, 08:15:44 pm »
oh... ok, so then there is the possibility of killing them... but at least, none of them ever was. It's a funny thing you know ^_^ they can be killed, somehow, but noone was actually able to.

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #160 on: July 12, 2005, 12:44:05 pm »
Haven't you guys played God of War? You can kill a god, durr  :wink:




Obviously I was being sarcastic, calm down Dan. :)

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2005, 01:20:46 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Haven't you guys played God of War? You can kill a god, durr  :wink:




Obviously I was being sarcastic, calm down Dan. :)


Did I say anything? I've never played the game, so I don't know. All I know is the general premise, and I feel inclined to point out that it was an extremely poor choice mythologically to make Pandora's Box some kind of god-killing weapon. The Sickle of Kronos would have been a far superior choice.

Zaperking

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« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2005, 06:39:00 pm »
Pandora's box would really only effect humans since they were pure till it was open. The only thing I see about the box is that all the God's emotions were poured into it. Hate, Violence. Since Humans didn't have any of that, only the Gods could. But the only thing that the God's envy is how precious each mortal life is, for the God's will never die and because mortals will, it makes them even more dear.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2005, 07:49:50 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Pandora's box would really only effect humans since they were pure till it was open. The only thing I see about the box is that all the God's emotions were poured into it. Hate, Violence. Since Humans didn't have any of that, only the Gods could. But the only thing that the God's envy is how precious each mortal life is, for the God's will never die and because mortals will, it makes them even more dear.


That last, though, really isn't a theme in old myth. In fact, the only place I can ever remember hearing of it is in Troy, which itself used very late traditions for its story (ie. not Homeric), spanned a time far exceeding the Iliad (thus is not based upon the Iliad), and even took it upon itself to alter the fates of main characters, such as Menelaos, which is something not even Homer did.

Anyway, as far as I can remember, the gods never envied humanity in such a fashion.

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #164 on: July 16, 2005, 06:22:21 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Haven't you guys played God of War? You can kill a god, durr  :wink:




Obviously I was being sarcastic, calm down Dan. :)


Did I say anything? I've never played the game, so I don't know. All I know is the general premise, and I feel inclined to point out that it was an extremely poor choice mythologically to make Pandora's Box some kind of god-killing weapon. The Sickle of Kronos would have been a far superior choice.


I was joking, I knew that the story was far from the canon.