Author Topic: The four elements tied into our universe  (Read 2169 times)

SilentMartyr

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The four elements tied into our universe
« on: April 17, 2005, 03:15:42 pm »
I came up with this a couple of days ago at CTNP when trying to figure out a good way to explain how Magic scientifically works. There it was accepted after some tweaks, but since you guys are redondiculously intellegent in science areas I figure I should present the thoery here. It is mostly based on physics and thermodynamics.

Quote from: CTCronoboy

Fire: Control of kinetic energy; if the energy is increased high enough friction of air can cause sparks to occur and thusly flame.

Water: Control of entropy, by controling the amount of entropy water can be formed by increasing the entropy of water molcules in air to the point where water can be formed from the hydrogen and oxygen in the air. Also by doing so can cause the flow of blood to decrease rapidly for quick injury assistance.

Lightining/Heavenly: Control of internal energy, controling the energy of molecules allows for charges to be made. These charges when in great amount can cause lightning to form. Also a body can be revived by controlling the correct portion of the brain, allowing for the person to be consious even after extreme trama.

Shadow: Control of potential energy, by controlling gravitational and electromagnetic forces devistating attacks can occur, black holes for example.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2005, 05:56:55 pm »
A very old post of mine.

Quote from: GrayLensman
I've always thought that Lightning was  electromagnatism, Fire combined the strong and weak nuclear forces, Water was some aspect of quantum mechanics (thermodynamics = ice, fluid flow; rates of chemical reactions = haste, healing), and that Shadow was gravity or space-time based.  

The only problem is that Robo's lasers produced Shadow damage but light is made up of electromagnetic fields.

Hadriel

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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2005, 07:10:42 pm »
Well, it's possible that the CT creators are simply using "laser" as a catchall term for any type of energy weapon or weapon with those elements in it, much as laymen do in Star Wars, when in fact the laser is something else.  It's entirely possible that the beam is an X-ray laser or some such thing.  Similarly, the Star Wars "laser" does not at all behave like a laser.  It is currently thought to be a massless beam weapon composed of extremely high energy luxons, the lightspeed particles binding together all tardyonic matter -- reactions between the individual particles produce the visible "bolt".  If you wanted to know how you can get enough energy to blow up a third-world country out of a potato, now you know.  (<-- deliberate SLIGHT exaggeration)

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2005, 12:20:52 am »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: GrayLensman
I've always thought that Lightning was  electromagnatism, Fire combined the strong and weak nuclear forces, Water was some aspect of quantum mechanics (thermodynamics = ice, fluid flow; rates of chemical reactions = haste, healing), and that Shadow was gravity or space-time based.  

The only problem is that Robo's lasers produced Shadow damage but light is made up of electromagnetic fields.


How does that explain Crono's ability to heal? I might be missing something with my slow brain.

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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2005, 01:06:38 am »
Quote from: Hadriel
Similarly, the Star Wars "laser" does not at all behave like a laser.  It is currently thought to be a massless beam weapon composed of extremely high energy luxons, the lightspeed particles binding together all tardyonic matter -- reactions between the individual particles produce the visible "bolt".  If you wanted to know how you can get enough energy to blow up a third-world country out of a potato, now you know.  (<-- deliberate SLIGHT exaggeration)

Wait, that doesn't make sense. Reading the Star Wars Visual Dictionary, I came to find that the lasers are rather super-heated bolts of plasma, thus the need for both a gas and energy cartridge in the weaponry. Now, this seems to be followed through in the movies, in counter of them being light-speed particles. Watch the tracking of the weapons: you always have to lead targets, and even in the movies the lasers don't appear to travel anywhere near light speed. Thus I'd think they are rather the plasma the Visual Dictionary says.

Anyway, getting back to CT... I find both the explanation by CTCronoboy and GrayLensman quite interesting, and both makes sense. Of course, I'd still go with the more mystical approach, stemming from theories similar to say, those of the Hellenic Natural Philosophers, and the elemental make-up of the universe (as some of them spoke of it), but if one needs to put it into scientific terms, based on the physics and reality of our world, I think both of these are quite valid, though I'd lean more to GL's side, which takes into account the five basic forces of the universe, rather than the forms that energy takes.
As GrayLensman, I'd think Lightning must go along with electro-magnatism. Moreover, the VoltBite shows that there is potential-energy in Crono's attacks: a volt is potential difference, after all. As for the healing, the electromagetism can act similar to a those heart boosters or whatever they're called, that they use when someone has a heart attack. Life, essentially then, can refire the synaptic pathways after a short instance of braindeath. I cannot remember rightly... does Crono have any other healing besides Life? If not, then this explanation fully explains it. We also have to remember that, in addition to Lightning, electromagnetism is also responsible for light, thus x-rays and gamma-rays, which may well be what Luminaire is: a burst of EM radiation across a wide spectrum, which peaks at such a point that light appears white, not unlike a nuclear blast.
I'd agree also that Shadow seems to be more of a gravitational force (though, as these are inherently magical forces, I find certain aspects difficult to reconcile with our own world laws.) The effects of despair, Dark Mist and Dark Matter and the like... well, Dark Mist may disrupt space-time in the minds of the opponents, causing them to hallucinate, lose concentration, and thus despair, in addition to injury. A very grievous attack, I'm certain. Dark Matter... well, I'm not sure how gravitational forces can cause such a thing - I cannot quite remember what it is? Is it when the electron spin about the atom is inverse of what it usually is, or is that anti-matter? Or is Dark Matter antimatter? If that is the case, it would indeed be potent! I'm not sure how Janus could reverse an electron's spin, but, oh, well...
Water is, quite plainly, simple water in the game, and healing is a thing often attributed to it; I think it technically only stems from one of the four elements one of the Natural Philosophers outlined, and really cannot be fully reconciled into any force. But for the sake of argument here, I'll take the suspension of disbelief and look at the theories... however, as I'm uncertain exactly how quantum mechanics affects thermodynamics (I can see there may well be a connection, but I'm not versed well in that field at all), I cannot make much of a comment. CTCronoboy's comment is also well thought through, so I'll leave this one be. The problem with it being entropy, however, is that it is very difficult to condense enough water out of the air to accomplish this.
Ice, it appears, drains the energy out of something. If Marle is powerful enough to drain all energy from a material so that it attains absolute zero it would, to my knowledge, suffer atomic decay, falling apart because it has no energy.
Finally, fire... I think that fire needs a reaction to occur, and cannot simply be kinetic energy. As for GL, I'm once again not well enough versed in the grand theories to be able to argue for or against this... wait... weak nuclear is inter-molecular bonds, correct? If so, it would govern oxidization and fire reactions. That makes sense. Apologies for a mind slow to pick up on this.

So, I suppose that I'd have to agree with GL, at least if a scientific explanation is sought (I prefer a mystical one, which I elaborated on to great length at the CTNP, but as I said, this is for sake of science and argument.) Althought, in saying that, he is also saying that there really is no distinction between the various magics: electro-magnetism is already tied into the weak nuclear, so already Lightning and Fire are connected, and are aspects of the same force. In time, we may well have the GUT, which will give us a connection between all forces. Thus, all four are essentially aspects of a single force and, in the Crono world, a single magic force. Woe betide he who challenges one who would be innate to that, eh?
The only grave difficulty with these theories is that whatever energy one gets out of it all, one has to put in. Some things, such as creating a sizable gravitational field or affecting strong/weak nuclear forces, would required immense energies that cannot come from nowhere. Either these people in their mind hold immense energy, or else it must come from somewhere else, effectively draining the area of its native energy. Furthermore, how would they control such forces with only their mind? It is inherently magic, and thus I think is difficult to reconcile on only scientific grounds by nature.
(My apologies if I wrote that in a very disorganized manner. I'm very tired, and my mind is not functioning well, it appears. Hopefully my comments were not fully useless, although I know I pretty much just reiterated what was already said.)

SilentMartyr

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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2005, 10:49:40 am »
Well obviously if we could explain exactly how the magic works then we would be frantically trying to perform these magical abilites or at least try to recreate them.

Ahh see I knew I was missing something with the lightning, damn lab taking all my brain functions.

As for the energy its not like they are creating the energy, they are just changing forms of energy that are normally around in the environment. Like breaking bonds in the air, that would obviously gain a huge amount of energy.

What do you mean by a reaction for fire to occur? For fire to happen there needs to be three things, Oxygen, an ignition source, and a combustion source (the thing that physically burns). By a reaction you mean the oxygen commbining with the combustion source?

Oh and Robo's lasers, if shadow is explained to be potential energy and the controlling of electromagnetic fields then that could be what those lasers are. I would have to think a little harder for a more detailed explination, but I have class.

Hadriel

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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2005, 07:44:33 pm »
Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
Quote from: Hadriel
Similarly, the Star Wars "laser" does not at all behave like a laser.  It is currently thought to be a massless beam weapon composed of extremely high energy luxons, the lightspeed particles binding together all tardyonic matter -- reactions between the individual particles produce the visible "bolt".  If you wanted to know how you can get enough energy to blow up a third-world country out of a potato, now you know.  (<-- deliberate SLIGHT exaggeration)

Wait, that doesn't make sense. Reading the Star Wars Visual Dictionary, I came to find that the lasers are rather super-heated bolts of plasma, thus the need for both a gas and energy cartridge in the weaponry. Now, this seems to be followed through in the movies, in counter of them being light-speed particles. Watch the tracking of the weapons: you always have to lead targets, and even in the movies the lasers don't appear to travel anywhere near light speed. Thus I'd think they are rather the plasma the Visual Dictionary says.


The VD was written by people who know as much about physics as you or I do about picking up chicks at a nightclub.  Curtis Saxton's ICS2 (Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections) and ICS3 (the Revenge of the Sith version) override it.  In fact, Dr. Saxton's work is subordinate only to the movies and novelizations of the movies -- and that's because it was based on the movies to begin with.  Plasma isn't able to be contained as a projectile at those low speeds by any known mechanism -- it's far too unstable.  Not only that, plasma is white hot, not green or red or any other inventive color.  However, plasma is stated to be part of the firing mechanism -- this does not contradict anything.

The reason they're lightspeed particles is that blaster damage is observed to occur BEFORE the visible bolt makes contact in at least two separate cases, one on foot and one in the Battle of Endor.  The "bolt" is the beam ratcheting up to full power.  We are able to see that this rate of power increase changes the bigger the gun -- hand blasters' bolts move as slow as 500 m/s, while those of capital ship-based turbolasers are sizable fractions of c.

But, regardless of what it is, "laser" is still a catchall term for something that isn't a laser in truth.  I believe that this same state of affairs applies to Robo's beam weapons.

I have in the past advocated GrayLensman's stance on the Chrono elements.  Dark Matter is currently thought to be a form of matter with negative gravity as predicted by Einstein's cosmological constant.  According to current theory, concentrating sufficient dark matter within a person or object would literally tear it apart.

You do need a chemical reaction for fire to occur, but not for directed energy transfer.  A simple laser operates on DET principles.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 01:22:02 am »
Quote from: Hadriel
Plasma isn't able to be contained as a projectile at those low speeds by any known mechanism -- it's far too unstable.  Not only that, plasma is white hot, not green or red or any other inventive color.  However, plasma is stated to be part of the firing mechanism -- this does not contradict anything.


I honestly don't know much about Star Wars, but a plasma is just an ionized gas and can be any color or temperature you wish.  There really isn't a way to contain a gas while it is in open space (with no pressure vessel or external magnetic field) either.  The plasma cannot generate a magnetic field which contains itself.

Edit: Although you are right that any high energy plasma would be white-hot due to its high temperature.

Hadriel

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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 10:14:53 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Hadriel
Plasma isn't able to be contained as a projectile at those low speeds by any known mechanism -- it's far too unstable.  Not only that, plasma is white hot, not green or red or any other inventive color.  However, plasma is stated to be part of the firing mechanism -- this does not contradict anything.


I honestly don't know much about Star Wars, but a plasma is just an ionized gas and can be any color or temperature you wish.  There really isn't a way to contain a gas while it is in open space (with no pressure vessel or external magnetic field) either.  The plasma cannot generate a magnetic field which contains itself.

Edit: Although you are right that any high energy plasma would be white-hot due to its high temperature.


Exactly.

Leebot

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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 11:39:07 pm »
To give an explanation of the colors from a physical standpoint:

Plasma is basically a gas that gets so hot, the collisions between molecules get violent, ripping electrons off. When electrons fall back down to lower energy levels, they emit certain wavelengths of light, depending on the energy difference. Due to the chaotic nature of plasma, you can expect to see all drops. Generally, this will spread out through the visible wavelengths, so we see white light.

However, if the greatest possible drop is just inside the visible spectrum (in the red region), the visible rays won't fill up the full spectrum, so the plasma will appear red (or somewhere on the red side). It really depends on the gas used rather than the energy.

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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2005, 01:17:31 am »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Quote from: Hadriel
Plasma isn't able to be contained as a projectile at those low speeds by any known mechanism -- it's far too unstable.  Not only that, plasma is white hot, not green or red or any other inventive color.  However, plasma is stated to be part of the firing mechanism -- this does not contradict anything.


I honestly don't know much about Star Wars, but a plasma is just an ionized gas and can be any color or temperature you wish.  There really isn't a way to contain a gas while it is in open space (with no pressure vessel or external magnetic field) either.  The plasma cannot generate a magnetic field which contains itself.

Edit: Although you are right that any high energy plasma would be white-hot due to its high temperature.


I *believe* that with a superconductor and a betaron (and a huge power supply) one could extend a torus donut magnetic field containing superheated plasma over a great distance, since the heat of the equipment would not be a constraint. (in space, of course.) Therefore you *maybe* could extend the tip of the magnetic field to a target and release plasma, to attack the target. But I doubt that would look or work anything like what you see in Star Wars.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2005, 02:34:13 am »
Quote from: Lazarus Plus
I *believe* that with a superconductor and a betaron (and a huge power supply) one could extend a torus donut magnetic field containing superheated plasma over a great distance, since the heat of the equipment would not be a constraint. (in space, of course.) Therefore you *maybe* could extend the tip of the magnetic field to a target and release plasma, to attack the target. But I doubt that would look or work anything like what you see in Star Wars.


I meant that the charged particles in the plasma cannot produce a magnetic field which in turn contains the plasma itself.  I'm not going to provide the proof, but it is basic electromagnetism.  Of course, an externally generated magnetic field as you describe can be used to contain the charged particles (although there will be leakage).

A plasma cannon or similar device is not going to work.  As soon as the material leaves the nozzle, it will disperse into space.  You could create a flame thrower or cutting torch, but not an effective long range weapon.

Hadriel

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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2005, 02:06:32 pm »
I'm well aware that plasma can be any color and of its subatomic properties -- but any plasma with enough energy to do damage will appear white.  Such plasmas will also be so unstable that they will disperse instantly without anything to contain them.  Therefore, any plasma blast weapon is unworkable even in theory.

You could perhaps create a beam weapon of sorts, but not a bolt weapon.

But we're way off-topic here.  What about the element possibilities we were discussing?  I doubt that Robo's Megaton Arm actually directs a megaton of energy.

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« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2005, 03:26:32 pm »
Quote from: SSJoseph
You know, I will never understand why Square went with those 4 elements when the elements are really...

Earth, Air/Wind, Fire, and Water

then Holy, and Demi


Because it's so clicheful it's almost painful (Who made a rhyme, baby?!)?