Activation of the very first gate

[stenir]

Well, it wasn't built to send people through gates, but is it truly a malfunction? I think a big question we have to decide here is what really happened. First off, are we assuming that the telepod shot power through the pendant, which in turn opened the gate? In that case, there's a big discrepancy, which of course will be immediately answered with "gameplay mechanics". Lucca and Taban aren't really shoving as much power through the pendant when it's around Marle's neck, yet with Crono they have to, in some terminology, "force" it back open with a large amount of power?

As far as malfunctions go, do we say that CT is a malfunctioning product because someone figured out you can fight the Black Omen in 1000 A.D....then 600 AD...then 12000 BC? No, it's an oversight on the part of the programmers. Is a game that you can play over the internet malfunctioning because a low-level player has high-end equipment or has exhaustive amounts of gil just because a friend sent it to him? Nah. (Trust me, I play Final Fantasy XI and I always get people calling Square-Enix on me because I'm curing my girlfriend's character whose about 50 levels below me...that's not cheating, it's using the game mechanics to our advantage when the company knows what is going on and chooses not to do anything about it.)

Or here's one: Lead. I know this was brought up. Lead has been around for the longest time, that is, known to humankind. So has Gamma Radiation. But when you realize that a thick piece of lead can actually decrease the amount of gamma radiation received, it's not the originally intended purpose of lead. So do we say lead is malfunctioning by preventing Gamma radiation?

[FouCapitan]

As far as malfunctions go, do we say that CT is a malfunctioning product because someone figured out you can fight the Black Omen in 1000 A.D....then 600 AD...then 12000 BC? No, it's an oversight on the part of the programmers.

You honestly think that's a mistake in programming?  The only question that brings up is not whether the Omen should be around still in prior times, but the paradox created by destroying something in an earlier time period that you fought in a later time period.  Hence another reason TTI was brought up in the first place.  Rather than approach through the problem on a logical time travelling sense, the programmers simply made it a dungeon you can explore multiple times, prompting us to come up with reasoning for it that is full of contradictions.

Or here's one: Lead. I know this was brought up. Lead has been around for the longest time, that is, known to humankind. So has Gamma Radiation. But when you realize that a thick piece of lead can actually decrease the amount of gamma radiation received, it's not the originally intended purpose of lead. So do we say lead is malfunctioning by preventing Gamma radiation?

You're comparing an undiscovered effect of a naturally occurring element that mankind has played no part in creating to a machine crafted for a specific purpose.  Lead was not made for any purpose, it was discovered within the earth.  Discovering that a metal blocks radiation is quite different from a teleporting machine opening a gate through time.  A better comparison would be if your toaster started making ice cubes, or your television started picking up FM radio.  These functions were not what the devices were built to do, so they are irregular functions or malfunctions.

[chrono eric]

You're comparing an undiscovered effect of a naturally occurring element that mankind has played no part in creating to a machine crafted for a specific purpose.  Lead was not made for any purpose, it was discovered within the earth.  Discovering that a metal blocks radiation is quite different from a teleporting machine opening a gate through time.  A better comparison would be if your toaster started making ice cubes, or your television started picking up FM radio.  These functions were not what the devices were built to do, so they are irregular functions or malfunctions.

Dammit Fou I was in the process of typing an almost identical response to that quote but you beat me to it.

But more back on topic, I think the story made it very obvious and at least beyond a reasonable doubt that the Gate was opened because of a combination of the Pendant and the Telepod interacting. We can't really speculate much more than that. Further speculation would involve asking just how the Gate Key or the Telepod work exactly, when no information is given in the game. The Epoch is a futuristic technology that gives the user the ability to travel through time at will, correct? Why then is it so hard to believe that Lucca (in all her infinite mad-scientist wisdom) could have created a technology that simply opens already existing time gates, when she already built a technology that lets someone freaking teleport?

[ZealKnight]

There was no gate originally. But the pendent reacting with the telepod (twice) created it as a malfunction (just as Lead blocking radiation) and the the teleportation that was suppose to take place was intercepted by the gate, sending Marle through time. After Crono went after her the gate became permanent, maybe because of the entity, and all she had to do was create something that could warp her and that how she got in. The Epoch could use the same principle actually. It could make a small rip in time, open it, and go through, but the hole can recover, thats why we don't see 100000000000000000 gates everywhere.

[chrono eric]

There was no gate originally. But the pendent reacting with the telepod (twice) created it as a malfunction (just as Lead blocking radiation) and the the teleportation that was suppose to take place was intercepted by the gate, sending Marle through time. After Crono went after her the gate became permanent, maybe because of the entity, and all she had to do was create something that could warp her and that how she got in. The Epoch could use the same principle actually. It could make a small rip in time, open it, and go through, but the hole can recover, thats why we don't see 100000000000000000 gates everywhere.

Well, once again the Lead blocking radiation thing is a pretty poor example ZealKnight, no offense, but let me focus on the rest of this paragraph:

How do you know the gate didn't already exist? It is fair to assume that the Entity is what originally created the Gates. Who is to say that the Gate itself didn't already exist, and the malfunctioning Telepod wasn't the catalyst to open it? Lucca herself said that she used the Telepod technology to create the Gate Key. To say that the Telepod created the Gate or made it stable somehow invokes an extra level of complexity that is unnecessary in my opinion. A simpler route of logic would be: Gate already exists - malfunctioning Telepod opens it - Gate Key based on Telepod opens it afterwards.

I guess the one thing that you could argue in your favor of the Gate not existing before the Telepod malfunctions would be the fact that the closed Gate sprite does not appear until after the Telepod malfunctioning, but that is a pretty poor argument in my opinion.

[FouCapitan]

I guess the one thing that you could argue in your favor of the Gate not existing before the Telepod malfunctions would be the fact that the closed Gate sprite does not appear until after the Telepod malfunctioning, but that is a pretty poor argument in my opinion.

A strong argument against the gate not existing before the telepod malfunction is the fact that we see gates here there and the other place in telepodless areas afterwards.

[chrono eric]

Yes that is very true Fou, but I was referring to what I interpreted as him saying that the Telepod literally somehow stabilized or created the very first Gate that the party travelled through. I could see an argument raised that was somewhere along the lines of "well, the Gate sprite didn't appear until after the Telepod malfunctioned". But you're right, clearly the other Gates existed independently of the Telepod all along.

[ZealKnight]

So you're saying that the telepod always had the power to open the gate? If thats true, how is it that Crono can travel the first time without being warped? And the answer is that the pendent caused a malfunction, but Lucca doesn't have the pendent but can still travel through time, so what do you think?

[chrono eric]

I don't really see a problem here. Perhaps Lucca observed the way the Telepod malfunctioned in the presence of the pendant and utilized that observation to create the Gate Key in her nigh infinite wisdom, which is maybe a device similar to the Telepod that "malfunctions" on its own with the sole purpose this time of opening Gates.

[ZealKnight]

Thats like saying it's a game device.

[Zephira]

A gate did 'exist' in this area before, though. A gate was opened here when Lavos sent Janus to 600 AD. The gate might not have remained stable, but the timestream was already disturbed in this area. I'm not sure how the Telepod works, but it sends a person from one space to another. Assuming the pendant amplified whatever energies the Telepod uses, it could have been too much of a strain for the already disturbed timespace, and thus the gate was opened once again. All Lucca needed to do was find another material that would amplify the Telepod's energy like the Dreamstone pendant did.
So there you go. Blame Lavos and Janus.

[ZealKnight]

I'll agree with that. I never said I was right I just said that Lucca had no Dream Stone so the Gate can't be opened with it. But an alternative might be possible, highly improbable but possible. I was just trying to point out that the Gate was opened without Dream Stone, and maybe try to explain this. But a time machine seems kinda impossible in the Chrono Series without it being made by Belthazar or without Dream Stone.

[chrono eric]

But a time machine seems kinda impossible in the Chrono Series without it being made by Belthazar or without Dream Stone.

A time machine, yes, I would be inclined to agree with you on that. But you can't compare the Epoch to the Gate Key. Since very little info is given about the way the Telepod or the Gate Key works, let me just give a hypothetical example of what I mean:

Let's say the Gate originally opened by an electrical surge produced by the malfunctioning Telepod. Perhaps this was amplified by the Pendant but that doesn't make the pendant necessary to open the Gate. Lets say Lucca realized that an electrical surge was all that was necessary to open the Gate and built the Gate Key such that it (hypothetically) uses a sufficient charge of electricity somehow to open the Gate. No Dreamstone is necessary. It is a simple cause produces effect situation here.

Now compare a device that (somehow) opens already existing time Gates with a literal time machine that can travel to presumably any time period it desires (if the Neo Epoch is any indication). One could be a relatively simple device, the other an unimaginably complex one.

[Zephira]

If I understand correctly, Dreamstone absorbs and amplifies magical energy. There are many other materials that conduct and amplify electrical energy. Some magic spells produce electricity (Lightning, Lightning2, etc.,) so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say other materials work just as well as Dreamstone when it comes to electricity.
On the same note, wouldn't it also be plausible for Robo's Shock tech to open gates as well? Or does that not produce enough electricity?

[chrono eric]

Who knows? Sure, why not? I was just trying to show that there is no need to add an extra level of complexity and say that "Dreamstone is required to open Gates" just because Dreamstone was present during the initial opening of the first Gate.