Author Topic: The dimensional split  (Read 2147 times)

Leebot

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The dimensional split
« on: April 10, 2005, 11:39:52 pm »
It seems that one of the plot points we've often glazed over without giving an adequate explanation is the dimensional split between Home and Another. This is mostly because we've had no explanation. Finally, I have come up with a plausible (at least somewhat) theory.

1004 AD (Keystone T-2) Serge dies
10XX AD (Keystone T-2) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar arranges for Kid to depart backwards to save Serge
1004 AD (Keystone T-3) Kid saves Serge, then returns to 10XX AD
(start speculation)
10XX AD (Keystone T-3) Noticing Serge is alive, Belthasar arranges for someone to travel back to 1004 AD
1004 AD (Keystone T-4) This someone interferes with Kid, preventing her from saving Serge. Both return to 10XX AD.
10XX AD (Keystone T-4) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar arranges for Kid to depart backwards to save Serge
->Keystone T-5 is created, matching Keystone T-3 exactly
->Keystone T-5 causes the creation of Keystone T-6, which matches Keystone T-4 exactly

The last two parts are key. Two separate timelines mutually create each other resulting in an infinite loop even with our laws of time travel. This is what's called a reciprocal causalty loop, where one set of circumstances causes another, which causes the first, and so on. This may be just what we need to cause a split between dimensions.

Thoughts?

GreenGannon

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The dimensional split
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 01:42:49 am »
I'm sorry but...Wha? I understood less than half of that.

Hadriel

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The dimensional split
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 02:40:44 am »
A causality loop makes a great deal of sense, actually -- it's an error in time so drastic that it takes an extraordinary power to fix it.  Hence, freeing Schala.

Aitrus

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The dimensional split
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 03:26:33 am »
Exactly.  The fact that these timelines are endlessly cycling could be what created the Angelus Errare in the first place, as both sections of the loop come out at the same point.  Since so many different timelines have all come out at that exact point, spacetime has become so thin as to allow seperate spacetimes to come together, creating Serge's ability to cross dimensions.

Chrono'99

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 01:59:38 pm »
I think I more or less understand what you're saying, but I have a question though to clarify : the Kid who's time-traveling is always the same Kid from T-2, right? and the other "someone" is always the same someone from T-3?

And, in the merged time-line, would this T-2 Kid still pop out in 10XX AD? Would that mean T-2 Kid would still exist after that even if the game's Kid merged with Schala?

More trivial but, something else which is interesting is that there must be another time-traveling machine beside the Neo-Epoch, as there are 2 time-travelers and the Neo-Epoch can only bear one person (according to Luccia if I recall correctly).

GrayLensman

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 03:43:57 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
It seems that one of the plot points we've often glazed over without giving an adequate explanation is the dimensional split between Home and Another. This is mostly because we've had no explanation. Finally, I have come up with a plausible (at least somewhat) theory.

1004 AD (Keystone T-2) Serge dies
10XX AD (Keystone T-2) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar arranges for Kid to depart backwards to save Serge
1004 AD (Keystone T-3) Kid saves Serge, then returns to 10XX AD
(start speculation)
10XX AD (Keystone T-3) Noticing Serge is alive, Belthasar arranges for someone to travel back to 1004 AD
1004 AD (Keystone T-4) This someone interferes with Kid, preventing her from saving Serge. Both return to 10XX AD.
10XX AD (Keystone T-4) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar arranges for Kid to depart backwards to save Serge
->Keystone T-5 is created, matching Keystone T-3 exactly
->Keystone T-5 causes the creation of Keystone T-6, which matches Keystone T-4 exactly

The last two parts are key. Two separate timelines mutually create each other resulting in an infinite loop even with our laws of time travel. This is what's called a reciprocal causalty loop, where one set of circumstances causes another, which causes the first, and so on. This may be just what we need to cause a split between dimensions.

Thoughts?

There are problems with this scenario.

If Time Traveller Immunity and Time Bastard are considered:

The version of Kid who appears in 1004 AD of time-line T-3 will always appear regardless of who Balthasar sends back in 1020 AD due to time traveller immunity.  All new versions of Kid will be sent to the DBT at the time of her original departure due to Time Bastard.

If Belthasar sends another time traveller (suppose Crono) to 1004 AD to prevent Serge from being rescued, he will gain time traveller immunity.

You see, although these time travellers may return to 1020 AD, they still exist in a protected state for some time in 1004 AD.  If Belthasar wants to further change the past, he must send a third time traveller other from Kid or Crono to 1004 AD.  At this point the causal loop is broken because Belthasar cannot continuously send the same time travellers to the past.  Once time travel event occurs on the time-line it cannot be repeated.  You can send new time travellers to create new changes to the time-line, but the original events are not repeatable.

If the function of the Darkness Beyond Time is considered:

For every new time-line which is created, the original is sent into the DBT.  I don't see how this sort of causal loop, if it could exist, would cause the Dimensional Split.  I think your idea is to put stress on space-time, causing the Dimensional Split.  This sounds plausible, but it could not occur by this scenario.

Leebot

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The dimensional split
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 05:11:25 pm »
Good point, GL. For some reason I was thinking the new versions would take precedence. But, how about if it works like this:

When Belthasar chooses to interfere with Kid, he does so by killing her off while she's traveling back in time (we know from playing CT that there's some perceptible time while in a gate). This way, the old Kid would never arrive in 1004 AD. Now when Belthasar sends back Kid from the new timeline, she won't be erased via Time-Traveler's immunity, and we'll get a loop.

There is a small question of why the new Kid isn't erased or killed while traveling by the old Belthasar, but this could be explained by saying she's at the wrong 5-D coordinates since she's traveling from a different timeline, so Belthasar would miss her. She also isn't erased, as time-traveler's immunity only applies within timelines, not while traveling (well, assuming this).

Now, we're back in the same situation of alternating timelines. What might happen is that the two possibilities (Kid succeeding versus Kid failing) alternate infinitely fast, so both timelines exist half the time (also dealing with our conservation of energy problems).

Quote from: Chrono'99
And, in the merged time-line, would this T-2 Kid still pop out in 10XX AD? Would that mean T-2 Kid would still exist after that even if the game's Kid merged with Schala?


I really can't say about what happens in the merged timeline. Perhaps she'll appear, perhaps she won't.

Quote from: Chrono'99
More trivial but, something else which is interesting is that there must be another time-traveling machine beside the Neo-Epoch, as there are 2 time-travelers and the Neo-Epoch can only bear one person (according to Luccia if I recall correctly).


Not necessarily. The Neo-Epoch only needs to carry one person, as only one is traveling for each dimension, with their own Neo-Epoch.

ZeaLitY

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The dimensional split
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 08:18:36 pm »
Question: What are the plot points behind this?

1004 AD (Keystone T-2) Serge dies
10XX AD (Keystone T-2) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar arranges for Kid to depart backwards to save Serge

Specifically that. Serge would have been one year old then; he wasn't threatened until 1006 A.D. Now, considering that is what you're speaking of, Schala invoked a magnetic storm that saved him. I'm not sure where Kid or other time travel interactivity occurs; to my knowledge, the first instance was in 1010 A.D. when Kid saved Serge from drowning. Can you clarify?

ZeaLitY

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The dimensional split
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2006, 07:55:58 pm »
I am going to go ahead with the actual article, but if you guys make something of this, it will be included after the proposed "Lockdown."

Chrono'99

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2007, 08:51:28 am »
I'm reviving this topic to propose a fix to Leebot's theory. The issue was that once Kid has time-traveled to 1010 AD once, she will always appear at that date regardless of other time modifications (even if Kid in the new 10XX AD doesn't time-travel). Note that the split was really in in 1010 AD, not 1004. Here's a possible solution:

1010 AD (Keystone T-2) Serge dies
10XX AD (Keystone T-2) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar arranges for Kid to depart backwards to save Serge
1010 AD (Keystone T-3) Kid saves Serge, then returns to 10XX AD
(start speculation)
10XX AD (Keystone T-3) Noticing Serge is alive, Belthasar somehow seals the time portal's 1010 AD exit
1010 AD (Keystone T-4) Serge dies because Kid can't exit the portal; she's stuck in the time tunnel
10XX AD (Keystone T-4) Noticing Serge is dead, Belthasar unseals the time portal's 1010 AD exit
->Keystone T-5 is created, matching Keystone T-3 exactly
->Keystone T-5 causes the creation of Keystone T-6, which matches Keystone T-4 exactly

This way, Belthasar shamelessly seals the portal's exit so that Kid's Time Traveler's Immunity is defeated. This portal sealing may or may not be the same thing as Schala's sealing of a Time Gate in CT (doesn't really matter).

Does this work?

alpha

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2007, 12:50:24 am »
hey look at that... Im confused.. perhaps...tomorrow when im less sleepy i can make more sense of this

Chrono'99

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2007, 08:22:56 am »
Bump

ZeaLitY

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2008, 04:42:19 am »
We sort of have to examine this from the position that Belthasar knows exactly what's going to happen. He'd have to plan to manipulate himself into these actions, requiring that the entire timeline up to Chronopolis be completely changed; he'd have to hope that the circumstances wouldn't make him behave differently.

But El Nido already exists, right? This means Belthasar's plan is already laid out, so he's there with the Neo-Epoch. But what does this really accomplish? It may be a loop, but is there any evidence to assert that Belthasar getting caught up in this cycle would cause the split? Well, no, that's why we're trying to explain why the split happened...but I'm assuming after this is all said and done, Home World comes into existence and Belthasar figures it out...somehow, then seals the Gate up one last time to negate that version of Kid forever? It's really getting out there.

Chrono'99

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2008, 06:44:14 am »
Well, the game says that Kid is "meant to travel back", but it doesn't actually mention Belthasar meeting her or anything. Perhaps Belthasar arranged the loop without him being part of it? He could have the Neo-Epoch Beach Bum speak to Kid, or something else, or even simply harshly time-warp Kid automatically through whatever means. Appearing at Opassa in 1010 A.D., Kid would have no idea what's going on, but she'd save the young boy drowning in front of her regardless.

Still, the theory is really technical and sketchy at the same time...

Radox Redux

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Re: The dimensional split
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2008, 11:00:22 am »
To be honest I don't understand how this solves the problem, unless Serge was constantly travelling from one active timeline to another, but of course, this obviously isn't the case concidering his part in the events of Another World. I understand the solution, but I don't see how it could fix things, so I'm gonna just assume I misunderstand the original problem.