Author Topic: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication  (Read 14020 times)

placidchap

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2009, 04:20:58 pm »
Right.  I am taking what Eclipse Magus said and interpreting it to mean that for every potential outcome, a world (dimension) is created, branching off in a  Y-shape.  In Serge's case, he either lived or died; 2 potential outcomes = 2 worlds (dimensions), without interference from a time traveller.  Kid is unnatural to the situation since she time travelled, causing a rift between the two dimensions, at the location of the split...each the same as before (Serge is still dead in one, but not the other) but now the possibility is there for Serge coming into the dimension where he should no longer exist. 
I don't know if there is anything specific that causes Serge's 50/50 chance of life/death, if anything at all.

chrono eric

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #91 on: March 03, 2009, 11:49:54 pm »
It seems to me that you are both saying the same thing. Every time there is a "potentiality" there is a split. In the original timeline there was no potentiality - Serge died, end of story. But Kid's action caused the potentiality to exist and thus the split.

Of course to adhere to this viewpoint would beg the questions - "well isn't normal time travel the same situation? Where does the DBT come in then? No DBT is necessary here".

placidchap

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2009, 08:08:37 am »
Mmm thats not what I was saying...I am saying the dimensions split at the moment of life or death, before any time travel...
when a situation could go more than one way and notably change the future, the dimension splits...meaning that anything meanignful that could happen, does happen.  not saying a dimension splits because you chose bacon and eggs over a slice of toast but when an instance occurs that has a significant outcome on the future, the dimension splits...finally, i am saying that kid was sent back to interfer with the naturally occuring split, to create the link between the two.

killercactus

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2009, 08:18:13 am »
It seems to me that you are both saying the same thing. Every time there is a "potentiality" there is a split. In the original timeline there was no potentiality - Serge died, end of story. But Kid's action caused the potentiality to exist and thus the split.

Of course to adhere to this viewpoint would beg the questions - "well isn't normal time travel the same situation? Where does the DBT come in then? No DBT is necessary here".

That IS what I was saying, but I think placid's contention is a little different.  I'm claiming Kid is what caused Serge's survival and the split.  He's saying that Kid had no part in Serge's survival or the split - she only caused Angelus Errare.  

The problem I see in placid's theory is this:

Quote from: Lucca
Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

Lucca plainly states that Kid is meant to save Serge.  I don't see how then Serge could've survived without her interference, and therefore don't see how Home World can exist without her time travel.  Also, in the quote on the prior page, Kato seems to imply that there weren't two Miguels until the Dead Sea formed in 1010, which indicates that there was only one dimension up until that point (that included Miguel anyway).

As for my theory, "Where does the DBT come in?" is a good question.  I originally thought that Another World existed in the DBT, but that "beyond the dimensions" quote from Miguel hurts that theory.  I have two possible answers to that.  One is that Miguel isn't referring to the DBT in that quote.  He's referring to FATE destroying the Dead Sea.  The other is that Another World should be in the DBT, but is being held in existence by something: maybe the Entity, or more possibly FATE.  I need to look into that.

EDIT:  placidchap - I think I understand what your saying a little more clearly now.  You're saying everytime something significant happens, there is a dimension in which it happens and another in which it doesn't.  I can see that, but I'm not sure it applies to this situation.  If the outcome was random (i.e. truly 50/50, depending completely on chance), I could buy that.  I don't think that's the case with Serge's death/life, but some people do.

In 1935, Shrodinger conducted an experiment with a cat trapped in a box, and a device that releases a fatal chemical into the box.  Exactly half of the time, the chemical would be released, and the other half it wouldn't.  The question was, before one looks in the box, what happens to the cat?  Is it alive or dead?  He said that, based on Einstein's (and others) interpretation of quantum mechanics, the cat was both alive and dead until the box was opened.  It was as if two dimensions were created - one in which the cat survived and one in which it died - you wouldn't know which dimension you were in until you looked in the box.

I guess, in Serge's situation, it just seems to me that since Kid was meant to save him, he has a 100% chance of survival once Kid travels back, not a random 50/50.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 09:49:06 am by killercactus »

chrono eric

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2009, 01:42:51 pm »
EDIT:  placidchap - I think I understand what your saying a little more clearly now.  You're saying everytime something significant happens, there is a dimension in which it happens and another in which it doesn't.  I can see that, but I'm not sure it applies to this situation.  If the outcome was random (i.e. truly 50/50, depending completely on chance), I could buy that.  I don't think that's the case with Serge's death/life, but some people do.

I just accept it primarily because it is straight from the mouth of Belthasar, the man who orchestrated the entire thing. It doesn't necessarily mean it is true canon, but it is pretty hard to refute.

In 1935, Shrodinger conducted an experiment with a cat trapped in a box, and a device that releases a fatal chemical into the box.  Exactly half of the time, the chemical would be released, and the other half it wouldn't.  The question was, before one looks in the box, what happens to the cat?  Is it alive or dead?  He said that, based on Einstein's (and others) interpretation of quantum mechanics, the cat was both alive and dead until the box was opened.  It was as if two dimensions were created - one in which the cat survived and one in which it died - you wouldn't know which dimension you were in until you looked in the box.

lol, Shrodinger didn't actually conduct the experiment - it was a thought experiment only. If he did conduct the experiment it would have been...appalling to say the least.

But, this is what I was talking about earlier in this thread (I think, it may have been another one, all these threads run together) about Cross taking its concept of dimensions directly from the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum physics.

I guess, in Serge's situation, it just seems to me that since Kid was meant to save him, he has a 100% chance of survival once Kid travels back, not a random 50/50.

If we assume that Cross was inspired by a "many worlds" interpretation, then we have to assume that in the original timeline Serge had a 100% probability of dying. No dimensions were created. We have to assume this based on the script of Cross. Kid's time travel was important to introduce the potentiality to the timeline.

So I guess, if this is the main difference between what you and placidchap are saying, then I would have to side with you on this one. I think that placidchap is correct in that countless dimensions are continually splitting off from each other and being created - that is indeed what both Cross and Eclipse Magus imply. However, with regards to this particular dimensional split - I think it was a unique circumstance that was somehow caused by Kid's time travel and wasn't supposed to happen.



killercactus

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2009, 02:00:42 pm »
Good call - Shrodinger definately wasn't killing cats.

As for Belthasar's quote, I tend to follow placid's interpretation.  The 50/50 shot is definately what split Serge's life in twain, but I think the 50/50 shot he is referring to is not a random 50/50 that depends on chance, but rather (to get mathematical) the simple average of the probabilities of the two dimensions.

In Another World, there's no Kid to save him.  His probability of survival is 0%.

In Home World, Kid saves the day.  His probability of survival is 100%.

So, as Serge is being drowned by Lynx, he has a 50% chance, and that chance depends on whether Kid appears to save him or not.

stenir

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #96 on: March 11, 2009, 07:02:06 pm »
One thing that I've noticed semi-bulldozed over is the fact of free will. I've seen a number of responses where it hinges not on Kid's interaction, but the fact she appeared in 1010 itself as a base reasoning for the dimensional split. Kid certainly, once she arrived, could have chosen not to save Serge. It's that free will coming back to bite us in the butt.

Chrono Trigger hinged on free will. Just because Crono, Lucca, and Marle saw that Lavos was going to destroy the planet, it didn't mean that Lavos was going to be stopped (in fact, until any action towards the goal of defeating Lavos took place, it remained 100% certain that in 1999 the Day of Lavos would still occur). It wasn't until they made the conscious decision to stop Lavos that the chance of putting an end to Lavos started to rise about 0%.

As far as the question of the 50%-50% probability of Serge's survival, it probably is nothing more than just life or death. We can surmise that Belthasar understands the full nature of the DBT, and therefore he also probably understands that causing a split and keeping an open connection is very dangerous. Perhaps the 50%-50% is not so much a deciding factor in Serge's lifeline, but perhaps it's the key to how the dimensions themselves split. After all, we know there's something very weird going on that, at least to my knowledge, was never explained how it occured. Based on our theories of the DBT, the moment that Kid saved Serge, the other universe known as Another World should have been kicked to the DBT. However, it wasn't, so perhaps Serge's probability of survival was the key to holding the two dimensions in a sort of limbo until one probability rose above 50%. What I mean is once Serge's survivability was guaranteed (i.e., when the plot is completed and Schala's merged the two universes back together, i.e., Serge's survivability is at 100%), maybe that is what allows the universes to effortlessly and harmlessly fuse back together.

I.E., when Schala ensures Serge lives, his probability of survival goes to 100%, his probability of death drops to 0%, and the dimension in which he died (Another World) is shunted to the DBT. Of course, one has to wonder whether Schala then utilized Home World as the template for the unified dimension (and if not, this theory would go a long way towards explaining how Serge would still be alive after the unification of the two dimensions).

Thoughts? I hope I got that out right. If not, you guys will question, I know it.

JMNowhere

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2009, 01:43:56 am »
Hey guys, that's my first time here. I was reading the Compendium's article about the dimensional split inconsistency and I can't understand why the split couldn't have happened on 1006 A.D.. I'll try to explain why.

PS: Sorry for my "Engrish", I'm brazilian and I never took any english lessons so take easy on me, please.  :)

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Dimensional_Split_%28Timing_of%29.html

Quote
Inquiry

In Viper Manor, Belthasar declares that the split of the dimensions happened ten years ago.

Prophet:
   Serge... This world is not
   the world you grew up in.
   10 years ago, something
   happened that put your very
   soul teetering on the
   balancing scales of fate...
   with a fifty-fifty chance
   of life or death!
   This is when your future
   was split in twain.


[...]

Belthasar only declares that Serge’s future was split into two. This is not the point when the dimensional split happens, it’s only when history starts to change in Home World. Besides, there is no reason to a minor change in history result in a dimensional split.

Quote
Later, Lucca alleges that it occurred in 1006 A.D. when Serge was injured and Schala reached out across time.

As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...
   That is when her story and
   yours began to intertwine...
   It is also when the past and
   the future began to intersect,
   and when the world became
   divided into two...


[...]

That’s it. The split happened in 1006 A.D., but the history of both dimensions remained the same until 1010 A.D. when Serge dies on Another World and lives on Home World.

Quote
1010 A.D. Support

The 1010 A.D. timing was originally chosen by the Chrono Compendium for sheer weight of evidence. This is when Kid rescues Serge from Lynx and his life truly diverges from the past. This is the date several people in the game allude to as the point at which their lives diverge (such as Mojo and the Arni fisherman each). Miguel states that the Dead Sea was formed in 1010 A.D., which is consistent with the repercussions of splitting the world in twain with the consequences of Home World's future being fated to an apocalypse.

This is the point when FATE loses its abilities to intervene with Home World. When Serge lived, history was changed, and FATE somehow doesn’t seem to support historical changes since it’s always preventing El Nido’s inhabitants from going to the main continent and changing history. Maybe historical changes could cause a system overload or something, this would explain why FATE couldn’t lead people’s lives anymore on Home World.

Quote
Also, we know that Kid is sent to the world by Schala as her mind tottered on the brink of being completely consumed by hatred. If the split occurred before 1004 A.D., two Darkness Beyond Times would have to exist for two copies of Kid to be sent to each dimension. This is a strange and troubling possibility, and this would mean there are two Time Devourers (with only one defeated), something we know to be false by ostensible game presentation at the nature of Time Error regions.

Not at all. If the split occours in 1006 A.D., there will still be one Darkness Beyond Time and one clone of Schala being sent to the only dimension (since the split didn’t occour in 1004 A.D.).

Quote
Plot Inconsistency

What causes the plot hole and flies in the face of all 1010 A.D. evidence is the statement by Chronopolis researchers that World 01 existed before this date.

   An instruction to the young girl
   in Arni 01 to give up going to
   the main continent as a poet.
   An instruction to the man in
   Arni 02 to give up becoming
   a fisherman.
   A plan to avoid any point of
   contact with the main continent,
   so as not to affect history.

   However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...


Chronopolis even seems built in mind with watching a second dimension. This completely shatters the internal logic of having the split in 1010 A.D. by establishing that Home World existed before the split. It directly contradicts everything, including Crono's statement and all supporting evidence that a new reality -- an irregular one -- was created when Serge lived.

From 1006 A.D. to 1010 A.D. both dimensions kept going like a single reality controlled by FATE, since there was no change in history until Serge’s survival. Only then an irregular reality was created, but Home World was already there. In this new history FATE somehow lost the control over El Nido.

Problems I can see:
   How could Belthasar foresee that Schala would cause the dimensional split? That would be the only reason to create a system watching two dimensions instead of one.

stenir

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #98 on: July 31, 2009, 02:12:49 pm »
Here's what we know:

1.) FATE states it has always been observing the two worlds.
2.) FATE states that after 1010, it cannot send data to Home World, which is listed as World 01.
3.) Chronopolis is basically geared towards watching more than one dimension at a time (hence the RD reference).
4.) The main split point that is heavily referenced is Serge's life or death situation in 1010.
5.) Miguel remembers being in the Sea of Eden for 14 years; 4 are the Sea of Eden, the other 10 in the Dead Sea.
6.) Kid travels to 1010 to save Serge.
7.) Miguel was stuck in the Sea of Eden at 1006, after Serge came into contact with the Frozen Flame. In Home World, the Sea becomes the Dead Sea; this prevents FATE from existing due to the timeline changes (the Day of Lavos occuring again negates Chronopolis' existence). In Another World, the Sea remains the Sea of Eden since the Day of Lavos does not occur. Since FATE in Another World is still able to keep an eye on the AW Frozen Flame, it sends AW Miguel (still alive since there was no Day of Lavos) to the Dead Sea to watch over the HW Frozen Flame.
8.) As a result of #7, when AW Miguel is killed in HW, FATE activates some sort of program which destroys HW Dead Sea from AW (i.e., across the dimensions due to the location of the three islands in the Sea of Eden).
9.) Miguel stuck in Chronopolis, at which point FATE kills him. When the dimension is split, the two worlds are different from that original one; in HW Miguel arrives in the future to find it destroyed (i.e., a TB following Serge's interaction with the timeline), but in AW he is kept alive due to FATE understanding what is going on. It proceeds to do #7 and #8 above.
10.) Kid can travel back and forth between dimensions, otherwise how would she get from Home World to Another World?
11.) Belthasar states the dimension split was due to a 50/50 chance of survival.
12.) The effects the characters are after do not occur until will is enforced. You cannot trigger the grandfather paradox by simply time traveling to the past and then returning. You have to act on it and kill your grandfather. Otherwise, the intended change does not occur.
13.) Chronopolis states that Home World is World 01. Technically, Serge is the alteration, therefore Chronopolis in AW should be World 01.


Okay, let's see if I can't give a good example of my thoughts.

1, 2, 3, and 13.)
Chronopolis is geared for watching more than one dimension at a time. In fact, it can watch at least three at one time: Another World, Home World, and the Radical Dreamers World. Now, if we go off the fact that Belthasar planned all of this in order to free Schala, we would have to assume that the most important world would be the one where Serge lives (i.e., Home World). This means Belthasar would probably have programmed FATE to recognize Home World as World 01 in its databanks; this relegates Another World as World 02.

Now, FATE can watch other worlds, but cannot directly interact with them. What if it could interact with its other version? For example, let's say that between 1006 and 1010 FATE wanted a certain person not to head to Termina on a certain day. Seems easy enough. But let's say that the two FATES (AW FATE and HW FATE) are aware of each other's existence, which they technically should be. Perhaps AW FATE wanted Person A to head to Termina in HW. Perhaps AW FATE made some sort of action which prompted HW FATE to tell that Person to head to Termina. It does state that AW FATE cannot send data to HW, most likely under this theory because HW FATE no longer exists (or perhaps the nature of the Dead Sea allows the two FATES to have constant contact, but no physical interaction with the other world's Records of Fate).

4, 6, 10, 11, and 12.)
The most evidence is placed on the dimensional split occuring in 1010. Serge died in AW, but lived in HW. Simple enough from that viewpoint. But let's take it a step further without going nuts.

Step 01: Serge dies.
Split: Nope.

Step 02: Kid is sent back in time from 1030 to 1010 to save Serge. (Yes, 1030, since Ghost Lucca in 1020 says Kid will travel back in 10 years.)
Split: Nope.

Step 03: Kid acts upon her instructions and saves Serge.
Split: Yes.

That's the point we have to remember: Free Will. Just because Kid has the opportunity to doesn't mean she does. Until Crono and company make the decision to go after Lavos and actually land the final blow, does the world change automatically? Does Crono go "I will defeat Lavos" and the world change around him? No. The physical manifestation of free will must occur for a time change to happen in the Chronoverse. We've pretty much beat this one to a pulp; until Kid traveled back in time, Serge was going to die 100% of the time. With Kid's actions, Serge was saved and Home World became the new focus world. However, since Home World and Another World are intertwined, the Serge from HW becomes the key which fits the void in AW (which is what is stated: Serge is able to travel back and forth because at any given time he is filling the void from the other world; likewise, when he gets Lynx's DNA and body, he can't because Lynx is still over in the other world, and not filling a void).

With that being stated, another possibility arises for this: Arbiter's have the ability to jump dimensions. This stems from the fact that there are likely two versions of Kid, one from HW and one from AW. However, Kid is Schala's clone, so it's quite likely that because Schala was at one time an Arbiter (she controlled the Mammon Machine, which had the Frozen Flame as its central power source), her DNA would be recognized (assuming Kid is an exact clone of Schala's DNA). Therefore, at weak points she can jump dimensions.

Now, with all of this being said, we have one big problem to discuss: How does the Split actually occur? Is it a Y, or is it an H?

Well, I think I've found a way to answer it. We all agree that a timeline without any changes looks like a straight line. We also agree that any defunct timelines are sent to the DBT. What if it starts like a Y but then becomes a | |. Almost like two parallel timelines. Here's what I mean:

Timeline 1:   Serge becomes Arbiter.      Serge drowns.      Kid doesn't go back.
      _____________________________________________________________________________


Okay, that's the original plan. Of course, we want to start here, since Kid has to actually act in order to change things:

Timeline 1:   Serge becomes Arbiter.      Kid arrives from 1030.      Serge drowns.
      _____________________________________________________________________________

Now, the difference is not whether Serge lives or not, it's whether she saves him that triggers the "split".

Timeline 1:   Serge becomes Arbiter.              Kid arrives from 1030.              Serge drowns.
      _____________________________________________________________________________
                                                                                                            \
Timeline 2:                                                                                             \        Serge survives.
                                                                                                              \____________________


Okay, so there's out split (Kid saving Serge). But the current assumption is that Home World (Timeline 2 in the diagram) did not exist prior to 1010. The way to describe this is based on the statement that defunct timelines are sent to the DBT. What if the ENTIRE defunct timeline, not just the remainder of the timeline after the change occurs, is sent to the DBT? The portion of the timeline prior to the change is copied, and is sort of pasted to be the history of the new timeline, and therefore it matches up with what we know. This also goes a long way towards a possible explanation for Opassa Beach's dimensional weakness. After all, Serge was drowned there, and subsequently saved there, so that's where the split physically "occurred".

Simple explanation. Say we have an alphabet of ABCDEFG. However, let's say we go back in time and change D so that it becomes S. Our old defunct future is DEFG, our new future is STUV. However, according to the current viewpoint based on Chrono Cross, STUV doesn't have a past, since it fissioned off from ABCDEFG. What if the past of DEFG (i.e., ABC) is copied over to the new timeline, making the new timeline ABCSTUV, which is correct. The old timeline, which is ABCDEFG (not just DEFG) is kicked to the DBT. So, now there are two timelines: ABCDEFG and ABCSTUV, not ABCDEFG and ___STUV.

At that point, the two timelines exist independently of each other except for places like Opassa Beach where a common void/gate/whatever between the two exists. There is no H, it's two lines like this:

Timeline 1 (AW):   Serge becomes Arbiter.      Kid arrives from 1030.   *   Serge drowns.
             _____________________________________________________________________________

Timeline 2 (HW):   Serge becomes Arbiter.      Kid arrives from 1030.   *   Serge survives.
             _____________________________________________________________________________

The link between the two hasn't always existed, only from that point forward (1010 AD). I put a * in the diagram to show a break-point. Anything to the left of the * is what got copied into the new timeline as it's past. Simple enough. If there are any problems with that, please let me know.

5, 7, 8, and 9.)

Okay, we've answered this one, but I want to go over it real quick and concise.

1006 A.D. (Death by Poison Universe)
Serge, Wazuki, and Miguel enter Chronopolis, which means they are in 1006+12000+2400 or 15406 A.D. This is the universe where Serge dies because he did not get any help for the poison. I.e., he dies in 1006 from the poison. Serge is healed, becomes Arbiter; Miguel is stuck there, probably to be killed by FATE (if the timeline were to continue). Wazuki and Serge leave the future, and return to the past, and continue to live their lives.

When Serge and his father leave, the timeline changes to the newer universe of AW. Which means that the Death by Poison Universe Serge, Wazuki, and Miguel are sent to the DBT when they step through the gateway to the future. The "newer" versions of themselves are the AW versions. AW Serge is healed, AW Miguel is stuck there, and they return to the past, and continue to live their lives. In 1010, Serge is killed by Wazuki/Lynx, and FATE continues to exist, etc.

Kid travels back and saves Serge, fissioning AW to the DBT, and HW to the current timeline status. Kinda flip-flopped around from they way they place emphasis in the game (they generally try to force on the player that HW is an abnormality, when technically AW would be the one in DBT since it was overwritten by HW). Therefore, we now have three universes, but we don't worry about the Death by Poison one since we never go there in the game.

So, basically, the Miguel in the Death by Poison universe is killed by FATE.

The Miguel in HW is killed because Serge lives and the future is apocalyptic (he probably got there and was killed by something, since all three would enter the present, run around for a bit, then Wazuki and Serge would simply disappear due to TB and Miguel would probably have been killed by something anyways).

The Miguel in AW is sent over to HW, probably while sleeping or something, to watch over the Frozen Flame there since FATE is no longer existing in HW (and therefore can't keep an eye on it like it can in AW).

I think that's enough. Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 02:14:50 pm by stenir »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #99 on: August 03, 2009, 04:05:30 pm »
Just chiming in to say that stenir has echoed the official Compendium position; that it's a Y-split, but with an H effect (Home World receives Another World's past, but diverges from the moment of the split).

Whether there's one dimension in the past or two is important for TTI reasons, but I guess dimensional TTI might change some things. The Armageddon Branch theory basically says that though Home World copies the history of Another, it doesn't copy the future time travel effects and TTI, and so there's no Crono to stop Lavos from destroying the world.

But, if Lavos was defeated in 12,000 B.C. (and the absence of any kind of eruption in 1999 A.D. in Chronopolis's history suggests this, as does the Black Omen), Armageddon Branch can't work.

stenir

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #100 on: August 03, 2009, 06:55:30 pm »
The past stays the same, meaning that Lavos is still sent to the DBT (he's dead in both Another and Home World, but the discarded "future" where he still existed is shunted to the DBT). In order to be shunted to the DBT, you are utilizing a specialized form of a dimensional vortex (it happens naturally during time travel, but the pinkish dimensional vortex at the end of the game allows for a direct trip there without following the standard rules). With that being said, Schala (according to Lucca at the end of the game) also gets sucked through a dimensional vortex:

Quote
[Lucca]
   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.

Schala and the defunct-timeline Lavos are the ones that merge. Since the Another World is DBT'd and Home World is the main timeline at the moment, the Time Devourer would go after Home World. Okay, so now we've set everything up...but then why does the apocalypse come back because of Serge?

The first thing I'd like to say is that the whole "Crono, Marle, Lucca, etc. can only be in one world because of TTI." I can't remember where I've seen this, but it's just stupid. That's like saying that if I eat a piece of cake in World 01, then time travel back and prevent myself from eating cake (thus creating World 02 and shunting World 01 to the DBT) that in World 01 I didn't eat cake. Crono, Marle, and Lucca existed in Another World; likewise, they existed in Home World.

The first question I would ask is whether the "PD" theory is actually a different form of the DBT. Think about it. If you defeat the TD in the DBT, it's as if he never existed, no matter what point in time you would come from (you still get the same ending if you defeat TD with 10 hours on the clock or 3 years, right). It's the same thing for Lavos. If you defeat the shell in the PD, it's as if it's destroyed from all points, no matter what point in time you would come from.

Why mention that? Trust me, it's integral. If you were to nix Dimensional Traveler's Immunity, you'd be able to describe this easily. With DTI, Lavos emerging from a PD would be immune to changes and he would therefore destroy the future (however, likewise, entering the PD would mean you'd always destroy Lavos...a mini paradox that probably really isn't one, eh?). Without DTI, everything lines up just right.

Armageddon Branch Theory was based on our conception of the timeline split at that point in our discussions. We were still on a Y-split thought process, where Home World is a tangent timeline (see Donnie Darko) which only exists for a certain period of time. However, if we reapply the Armageddon Branch Theory with the Y-split H-effect theory, we can find that the Armageddon Branch works slightly differently. Crono exists in both worlds, at least for 1000 AD when the original adventure occurred. Remember that with the H-effect, the history "prior" to the split is "copied" to the new dimension. So even if Crono is dead by or after the point of the split, the fact that he existed prior to the split means he still exists in both worlds due to the copied history.

My next thing I want to bring up is the continual thought process that Crono is the one to defeat Lavos both times. Yes, we are sitting here trying to determine how Lavos ruins the Home World future, when in all likelyhold it's the remnants of the Time Devourer in a revenge mode. So, let's sum this up.

1.) Another World - Schala falls in Dimensional Vortex.

2.) Another World - Crono and Co. defeat Lavos through the Black Omen after Zeal falls. This Lavos is dead, and the remainder of his future is sent to the DBT.

3.) DBT - The defunct Lavos begins to merge with Schala. It will take a while (they've stated it throughout the game it will take a long time before the Time Devourer is fully formed).

4.) Another World - The Split occurs, forming Home World as the new main timeline. Another World is shunted to the DBT (therefore, it cannot be touched by the TD).

5.) Home World - The TD wreaks havoc on the future of Home World. It cannot escape into AW because it's already in the DBT.

I know this is a vague explanation, but at least it's an explanation that gets everything down. You can't normally get to the DBT at all from anything unless by special means or by defuncting a timeline. And when you defunct a timeline, you can typically no longer "access" it. It's there, but you can't get to it (no one has ever said you could jump from one timeline in the DBT to another, but the TD doesn't exist in a "timeline"). So, you have to get there via Dimensional Vortexes.

Basically: If the TD could have reached Another World, it would have destroyed that future as well. Since Another World is in the DBT, the TD can't reach it. So, Home World = not in DBT = destroyed. All other discarded timelines = in DBT = not destroyed. Simple enough.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #101 on: August 04, 2009, 12:09:44 am »
Wait, are you saying that Another World was sent to the DBT? Belthasar clearly said that a split was needed, not the typical 'sent to the DBT' that has been happening the rest of the time.

stenir

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #102 on: August 04, 2009, 08:38:27 am »
While there is certainly nothing in the way of evidence to go either way, if we follow our established theories, then Another World would have gone to the DBT. Kid's actions in 1010 would have caused a timeline change, meaning Home World would now be the main timeline and Another World would have become defunct.

Now, the main reason I say AW had to go to the DBT is that it helps create a reasoning for why the future of AW was not destroyed while HW's was. If we say that AW is in the DBT, and the Time Devourer is in a non-timeline portion of the DBT, then the fact that you have to go to HW in order to head to the TD suggests that HW and AW are in two different locations in spacetime. Of course, this is just gameplay mechanics, but if we take it as the dev team wanted you to be in Home World for a reason in order to go after the TD, this is about the best reason.

And since you can't get to the TD from AW, a theory on that is although all defunct timelines are in the DBT that doesn't mean you can jump from one to the other. Therefore, the TD could not reach AW, and the "ruined" future cannot take place. However, since HW is able to be accessed from the DBT, the TD is free to reach out and destroy that future.

It's sort of a spin on the "Serge living causes the ruins". I have no evidence either way, but that's why it's just a theory.

And technically, any split which occurs sends one timeline to the DBT; I just suggest that dimensional weaknesses allow for the travel between the two timelines at points like Opassa Beach (where the split first occurred). And actually, Belthasar never actually says anything which would contradict AW being in the DBT (and his library is in a 3rd dimension, and you get to it from AW, so perhaps he's thought this through even more than we originally believed).

If there is something Belthasar says that negates the possiblity of AW being in the DBT, let me know. There being a split doesn't prevent it from being possible, I believe.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #103 on: August 04, 2009, 10:30:30 am »
Wrong, you can access the TD from AW.

As for evidence, well, after receiving the Time Egg...

Quote from: Belthasar
   That Time Egg will
   enable you to travel
   beyond space-time...

Beyond... then this means that AW is still inside those boundaries, which makes it be in it's own dimension, rather than in the Darkness Beyond Time. Well?

stenir

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Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #104 on: August 04, 2009, 10:50:15 am »
I don't remember being able to access the TD from AW. Then again, I've never tried to. I've always accessed it from HW. I'm playing through it, partially to max out stats and partially for very intensive reading of the script (without reading from a script itself). If that's the case, well, my theory gets shot.

Woulda been a nice theory, eh?

Hm...

Stretch: what if the DBT was nothing more than all the other dimensions which we aren't currently in? All we say is that the DBT is a wastebasket for the discarded timelines. What if DBT is relative? Like, if we are in universe 05, universes 01-04 are in DBT? And in the same example, if we are in 04, than 01-03, and 05 are DBT? We don't exactly know the mechanics of the DBT, so that is something I'd like to think more on.

I don't want to sound like I don't believe you, Acacia Sgt, but can anyone back up that you can go to the TD from AW? I've never done it, but I'll try in this playthrough.