Author Topic: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication  (Read 14022 times)

stenir

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« on: February 16, 2009, 03:23:35 pm »
Here's something I've been wondering about. It's been stated that multiple dimension co-exist in a manner of speaking, that is to say that the Radical Dreamers dimension existed at the same time as those where Chrono Cross takes place. The RD dimension was not sent to the DBT, but here's where I ask my question.

Was the dimension split? Or when Kid saved Serge did the dimension duplicate itself and then that change was made? I may not have worded that right, but I think you'll get what I mean. Shouldn't the fact that it's a completely separate dimension also solve the problem of why Another World wasn't sent to the DBT when Home World was brought into existence?

Or perhaps it's something like the Pocket Universe from Donnie Darko. You know...where time utilizes a branched off universe which has the same history to a point, at which the branching universe is only utilized in order to stabilize the first. So Home World was created in order to stabilize Another World, which of course meant that Serge would not have existed, but that's a separate point. Just something to possibly think about.

Fusing of the dimensions at the end of the game by Schala might also account for the fact that there would be differences from the original Another World.

Thoughts?

ZealKnight

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
  • Loyal Knight of the Kingdom of Zeal
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 03:44:12 pm »
Donnie Darko was a great movie. But more on topic, I'm pretty sure CC explains it in the way that it split, not really duplicated.

stenir

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 04:14:21 pm »
Well, just because they used the word split doesn't mean it works the same way as what we are used to the word "split" meaning. Technically, every change the CT gang made "split" the timeline in two, one being sent to the DBT (the old), and the other staying prevalent (the new). If the timeline was copied (or if the altercation which supposedly "split" the timeline brought a dimension which already existed into alignment with Another World, that is to say, a dimension in which its timeline was exactly that portrayed as Home World), then that would account for how both dimensions can be visited (unless you want to suggest that you can visit the DBT, which would be cause for a whole new set of adventures).

ZealKnight

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1067
  • Loyal Knight of the Kingdom of Zeal
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 05:19:35 pm »
I'm not saying anything but they explained it as another dimension the split from the original.

chrono eric

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1161
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 02:09:48 am »
CC made it very clear that the nature of the dimensional split was very different than normal instances of altering the timeline. A 50/50 chance of Serge's survival is given as the ultimate reason for the split, however, this is somewhat ambiguous. What is also ambiguous is the nature of the split. A "Y" shaped split with both dimensions sharing the same past before 1010 AD had the added benefit of predicting that the Dead Sea would only appear in 1010 AD at the time of the split, as evidenced by the game. Thus it is the split theory that I accept. However, recent changes to the Compendium's theories on the mechanics of time travel in the Chronoverse may change that.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 12:14:26 pm »
Yeah, the game is really vague on what caused the dimensions to "split," which makes the "why" and "how" very difficult to determine. We aren't sure on the relationship between Home and Another, so the RD and Dragonian dimensions are even more troublesome to pin down.

BROJ and I discussed a while ago (as in probably over a year ago) the two possible "shapes" that the dimensions might take.

There is a Y shaped dimensional split (or Y-Split), in which at the point of the 50/50 chance Belthasar cites as when the flow of time split the dimensions are separate, but before that they are the same. Essentially, the dimensions only exist in the "future" from the perspective of the time point when the split happened.

This is sometimes also referred to as "Armageddon Branch" because when Crono & Co traveled from 12,000 BC to 1999 AD to kill Lavos, they would only travel to one dimension (and thus only save one dimension).

That is, there is no Home World or Another World in 1001 AD. So a change in the timeline then would affect both Home and Another.

Or there could be an H shaped dimensional split (or H-Split). When the 50/50 chance Belthasar mentioned occurred, both the "future" and the "past" were split. If one changed time, after the split occurred, in 1001 AD, it would only affect one dimension

Unfortunately, there isn't quite enough information to decide which split is the reality.

It was pointed out in another thread that Miguel remembers being in the "Sea" for 14 years. For 4 of those years, the sea was the Sea of Eden (and thus, he was in Chronopolis). But for 10 of those years, the sea was the Dead Sea (and thus, he was in the Tower of Gedon). That he remembers ever coming to the Sea of Eden implies a Y-Split; if it was an H-Split, then he should have only remembered the Dead Sea (as the Dead Sea would have always existed in Home World under an H split, but in a Y split those first 4 years would have been in the only dimensions). But such a theory doesn't take everything into consideration.

Doubly unfortunately, there isn't quite enough information to say exactly when the dimensional split occurred either. Consider this statement from Chronopolis:

Quote from:  Chronopolis Computer
   Two worlds that are so close,
   and yet so far in nature, exist
   in different dimensions.
   Under the surveillance of the
   main computer of Chronopolis...
   '"FATE."'
   In other words, FATE, has
   always been observing the 2
   parallel worlds, and guiding them.

   FATE has been manipulating the
   world of El Nido, in order to
   avoid any major change to the
   history it knows.
   If an event on El Nido
   influences the main continent,
   the year 2400, in which FATE
   exists, would change.
   This paradox could potentially
   lead to great disaster...

   The Records of Fate - FATE's Terminals -
   collect data from around the world,
   and input guidance directly into the
   minds of its users.
   In this discreet way, FATE is able
   to control the lives of people
   without them knowing.
   Guided by fate, the people of
   El Nido lead a harmonious life.
   In a sense, they are nothing
   more than puppets of FATE.

   An instruction to the young girl
   in Arni 01 to give up going to
   the main continent as a poet.
   An instruction to the man in
   Arni 02 to give up becoming
   a fisherman.
   A plan to avoid any point of
   contact with the main continent,
   so as not to affect history.
   
   However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

This implies that there were split dimensions before 1010. This split might have actually been in 2400AD, per Kid:

Quote from: Kid
   In the year 2400, during a
   counter-time experiment, the
   Flame goes out of control...
   This causes the dimensions
   to rip apart
, resultin' in
   the Time Crash.

Emphasis added. However, such an approach doesn't address the significance of Opassa beach; it is clearly established as a point of weakness between the two dimensions where a crossing is possible.

To note, however, such a crossing is also possible in the Dead Sea/Sea of Eden (but one can't access the DBT from that point, potentially indicating that the two distortions are of different varieties, or that the Game Programmers were lazy).

The best I have ever been able to come up with is that there are two types of dimensions:

Fundamental Dimensions and Secondary Dimensions.

Fundamental Dimensions would have been realities that have existed apart from every other "Fundamental Dimension" since the beginning of time. They represent different starting positions of the universe. Maybe Pi is a decimal point different in one dimension, gravity is slightly weaker in another, etc. Basic fundamental differences in the way the universe works which lead to different outcomes.

Secondary Dimensions are when Fundamental Dimension "split." The RD and Dragonian Dimensions seem to be Fundamental Dimensions while Home and Another seem to be Secondary Dimensions.

However, the actual proof for such a perspective is lacking, in game.

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2009, 12:24:49 pm »
Quote
   When did this sorry tale
   all begin...?
   Was it 10 years ago, when
   you almost drowned here?
   Or was it 14 years ago, when
   you were wounded by that
   panther demon that attacked
   you...
   ...resulting in you being
   carried to Chronopolis where
   you came into contact with
   FATE and the Frozen Flame...?
   Or perhaps it was even 2,400
   years in the future, when the
   Time Crash hurled Chronopolis
   back to prehistoric times?
   Or even it could have been
   12,000 B.C., when an ancient
   magical kingdom met its end
   after trying to use Lavos...?


   Each is close to being
   correct...
   And yet, at the same time,
   so far from the right answer!
   The true beginning was during
   the destruction of the ancient
   Kingdom of Zeal!
   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.
   Filled with the hatred and
   sadness of Lavos, half of
   Schala's mind became set on
   destroying all of existence.
   Yet at the same time, the
   other half of her mind
   desired to save the universe
   and to be rescued herself.
   As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...
   That is when her story and
   yours began to intertwine...
   It is also when the past and
   the future began to intersect,
   and when the world became
   divided into two...

   Led by the pitiful crying
   the young Serge made as
   the panther demon's poison
   took hold of him...
   Princess Schala traveled ten
   thousand years in time to try
   and make contact with this
   dimension!
   This caused a raging magnetic
   storm that resulted in FATE's
   system malfunction, which led
   Serge to the Frozen Flame.

And I would like to quote ghost Lucca's lines.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2009, 03:28:20 pm »
Lucca was quite perceptive in that it does appear time split in 2400 AD, 1010AD, 1006 AD, and 12,000 BC.

But from your quote, utunnels, both 12000 and 1006 seems like valid split points. Lucca was perceptive, but still not clear.

chrono eric

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1161
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2009, 05:40:01 pm »
And it becomes even more troublesome if we do in fact presume that the split point was in 1010 A.D. and the dimensions take a "Y" shape.

Example:

Timeline 1: Serge dies in 1010 AD, Kid travels back in time to save Serge.

New timeline 1a: Kid appears in 1010 AD to save Serge from drowning, this somehow causes the dimensions to split. In Home World Kid still travels back in time to save Serge from drowning, but in Another World she does not.

But wait! If the dimensions take a "Y" shape then everything that happened before the split would affect the future of both dimensions. If Kid appearing through a time portal happened before the split (ie: the split happened at the exact moment Serge was saved), then Serge would be saved in both dimensions. If the dimensional split takes an "H" shape then this is not a problem.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2009, 06:23:32 pm »
Well, Kid could always travel back in time and fail.

Presumably she had to fight with Lynx/Wazookie. So I guess her struggle could have gone either way? She couldn't kill him (since he still existed in both dimensions), but she must have driven him away?

chrono eric

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1161
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 06:29:50 pm »
But still, I meant that if the dimensions split at the exact moment that there was a 50/50 chance of Serge's survival then Kid's actions would be solidified in the past of both worlds if the dimensions took a "Y" shape.

If the dimensions split during Kid's confrontation with Lynx/Wazuki then this probably isn't a problem, but it raises other questions too. This is a question that we probably won't solve. I still think the "Y" shape holds slightly more evidence from the game though. And it holds the benefit of actually predicting certain events in the game. But an "H" shape is supported by the script too. Additionally, a "Y" shape with a specific split point makes the dimensional reunification easier to visualize.

I think ultimately the concept of a dimensional split is so damned confusing that they didn't really know where to take it in a definitive direction.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2009, 06:35:56 pm by chrono eric »

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 12:46:56 am »
Lucca was quite perceptive in that it does appear time split in 2400 AD, 1010AD, 1006 AD, and 12,000 BC.

But from your quote, utunnels, both 12000 and 1006 seems like valid split points. Lucca was perceptive, but still not clear.

12000 would fit the record in Chronopolis which said FATE has always been observing the 2 worlds.
But it is unlikely there were 2 FATEs even before the Dead Sea accident, which makes Chronopolis like a linkage between the 2 dimensions.
We still don't know exactly what Time Crash's effect should be.

Quote from: Miguel
   Welcome to the
   Tower of Geddon...
   Time Crash Ground Zero!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:54:40 am by utunnels »

placidchap

  • Temporal Warrior (+900)
  • *
  • Posts: 905
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 09:06:50 am »
Or the "There are as many worlds as there are potentialities."  line from Eclipse Magus tells us that the "dimension split" is really just a link created between two already existing dimensions; one with Serge alive and one with Serge dead.  Which would also look like an H, but the - between the | | is just a link between two already existing dimensions.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 11:02:51 am »
12000 would fit the record in Chronopolis which said FATE has always been observing the 2 worlds.
But it is unlikely there were 2 FATEs even before the Dead Sea accident, which makes Chronopolis like a linkage between the 2 dimensions.
We still don't know exactly what Time Crash's effect should be.

Unfortunately, it wouldn't fit what Belthasar said or the emphasis on Opassa beach.

The problem is, who do we trust? Belthasar is a known lier, Chronopolis is a dupe, Lucca is not real, etc.

However, I would agree; Chronopolis seems to be stand astride the two dimensions. At least, it is quite capable, apparently, of crossing into Home World to gather data and kill off dragons. One would not expect such cross dimensional behavior if there was just one per dimension.

utunnels

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2797
    • View Profile
Re: Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 11:12:13 am »
Perhaps what Belthasar means was: Serge's survival differed the home world's future from another world.
But that's only my thought, it seems it is even offcially confirmed that Serge's survival was the reason why the dimension was divided.