Author Topic: The Dreamline (new direction?!)  (Read 1545 times)

Eske

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2009, 08:36:21 pm »
This theory is still not complete.  This is the second major edit - the purpose of reediting this time is to increase clarity while keeping explanations to the point, so forgive me if keypoints do not flow well into eachother.

The Dreamline

The Dreamline is the view of the adventure from the perspective of the Entity. It is the Entity's subjective interpretation of events while "revisiting" and "predicting" them in an effort to save itself from it's eventual death due to Lavos in 1999AD.

It works like a timeline, but in order of memories
recalled/predictions made, rather than chronological order:

Normal timeline :

------------------------------------------------------------------
65milBC   12000BC   600AD   1000AD   1999AD   2300AD          EoT

Dreamline (segment) :

------------------------------------------------------------------
1000AD 600AD 1000AD 2300AD EoT 1000AD EoT 600AD EoT ...

As such, causality is treated very differently, for example:

   "Person A" conceives "Child B" at Time X.
Time travellers from X+1000 disrupt this by convincing A,    currently at Time X-10, to come back with   them.  It turns out that one of the time travellers is a descendant of A. They hang around for a bit and then A returns to her own time at X-9.

Causality on a normal timeline would make this troublesome. If Time X never produces B, how can the time traveller from X+1000 still exist? 

TTI seems like it would save the time traveller from vanishing, but we see in the game that Marle vanishes when Queen Leene remains kidnapped, so obviously TTI cannot function this way. 

Normal Timeline:

---P1--P3--------------------------P2---------------
 X-10 X-9            X             X+1000

Here we have the 3 important positions "A" holds.  A reaches P2 before A can experience Time X, and is therefore meeting with her descendant before it is even sure that he can ever be born. Marle is not spared, so why should he be spared?

The Dreamline avoids all of these nasty little complications, watch:

Dreamline:

P1-------P2-----P3
X-10  X+1000   X-9                   

Now take the above and "unfold" it over the normal, chronological timeline:

Normal Timeline (after dream) :

  P1   P3                               P2
(----)(--)------------------------(--)------
 X-10  X-9            X           X+1000

This is (or was) the Ayla Paradox. Now let's look at the Marle Paradox, where again she has ancestor-descendant issues, yet we have the opposite result this time.

Marle Paradox:

Time X is the point of no return. The period in which it is no longer possible for Frog to save Leene on his own.  After Chrono witnesses Marle vanish, he and Lucca aid Frog, creating a new Time X and helping the Entity recall Marle once again.

Normal Timeline:


-------P2-------P3----------------------------P1-P4---------
       600AD  Time X      601AD              1000AD

Dreamline:

--P1-------P2-------P3--------P4------------------------------------
1000AD   600AD   Time X   1000AD


Normal Timeline (after dream) :

  P2   P3                                       P1       P4
(---------)-----------------------------(---)----(---)
 600AD TX                               1000AD    ""

Notice the key difference from the Ayla example, Time X is within the scope of the Dreamline.  So let's go over this:

Critical Moment Time X within Dreamline, Marle's ancestral chain is broken, so the Entity forgets her where she stands, to Crono's dismay.

Critical Moment Time X outside Dreamline, Marle's ancestral chain is preserved, so the Entity recalls her, despite the apparent break in physical causality.


I will edit this post again soon to re-include the "Crono, Clone and the Time Egg"  and "Doan Paradox" sections.

 I am posting this here and replacing the original post.  I will clean it up even further after feedback or just later on. 8)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 03:24:26 am by Eske »

chrono eric

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2009, 12:33:28 am »
Ah, I miss the epic discussions we used to have here.  :D I've just been too damned busy to put any effort into them lately.

This is much more concise than your original post, but there is one thing about this Dreamline theory of yours that confuses me, so maybe you could clarify?

Are you saying that the Dreamline, which is composed of the memories of the Entity in the order that they are recalled, influences the timeline directly and vice versa? As in, Marle doesn't disappear when Ayla time travels because the Entity still remembers her, since "Time X" of her ancestors birth wasn't reached yet, while Marle does disappear during the Queen Leene fiasco because Time X was reached and history was (for the moment) inevitably changed so that Marle is never born?


Eske

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2009, 02:26:37 am »
Ah, I miss the epic discussions we used to have here.  :D I've just been too damned busy to put any effort into them lately.

This is much more concise than your original post, but there is one thing about this Dreamline theory of yours that confuses me, so maybe you could clarify?

Are you saying that the Dreamline, which is composed of the memories of the Entity in the order that they are recalled, influences the timeline directly and vice versa? As in, Marle doesn't disappear when Ayla time travels because the Entity still remembers her, since "Time X" of her ancestors birth wasn't reached yet, while Marle does disappear during the Queen Leene fiasco because Time X was reached and history was (for the moment) inevitably changed so that Marle is never born?


This is the idea, exactly.   

As for your question, its hard to say sometimes. Usually the Dreamline effects the normal timeline.  The theory works really well when it comes to preserving the characters, but the Sun Stone gives me some difficulties.  If I can figure that one out, I should be able to complete the theory.




IAmSerge

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2009, 02:38:50 am »
check out my post over here
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6596.msg158128.html#msg158128

if you want to see my opinion on the marle effect, and the way time works... in my opinion.

Its a chaotic post... and it was kinda late when I made it, but none the less

(oh yeah, and there is no TL;DR version)

Eske

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2009, 03:13:30 am »
check out my post over here
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6596.msg158128.html#msg158128

if you want to see my opinion on the marle effect, and the way time works... in my opinion.

Its a chaotic post... and it was kinda late when I made it, but none the less

(oh yeah, and there is no TL;DR version)

I've read that post before, and I like it.  Dreamline is a bit different though.  It isn't supposed to be purely based upon physics, but gives the power to the Entity while still using TTI TB and TE.  I just thought it would be fun to say "The Entity did it!" and then explain why.  8)

And, although I just posted my issue with the Sun Stone, I'm going to scrap that problem and simply make the assumption that the Porre Mayor explored the Sun Shrine in the original timeline (before the moon stone was ever placed) so that its "Time X" events intersected with the Mayor's Time Y events, looking something like this:

Original Timeline:

All Points on Timeline X: "Moon Stone is not in Sun Shrine"
1000AD Time Y: "Mayor explores Sun Shrine, finds nothing"
All Points on Timeline X (cont.) : "Moon Stone is not in Sun Shrine"

New Timeline (after dream):

All Points on Timeline X post 65mil BC: "Moon Stone IS in Sun Shrine"
1000AD Time Y: "Mayor explores Sun Shrine, takes Moon Stone"
From that point on Timeline X and onward "Moon Stone is not in Sun Shrine"

So, even without Entity observation, things can take their natural course.  In this case, the "natural course" is represented by countless Event (or Time) Ys that intersect Timeline X.  As long as none of these Event Y's create a new or change the nature of Time X, causality can be averted.

On Timeline X, Ayla has her child at  X=10.    At X=1 she time travels, "pausing" Timeline X relative to herself, but the static timeline is preserved for all others in the future. In other words, enough Time Error has to pass so that X=10 in order for Ayla to change history. Right now, Marle's existence is secure, but if some Event Y were to disrupt that, say, the village is attacked at X=3 and only Ayla can defend it, Marle would still vanish as with the Leene example.  When would she vanish though?  Probably after an amount of Time Error has passed so that X now = 3.

So to re-answer chrono eric's question, The Dreamline and the Normal Timeline play a game of "temporal tag" with one another.  They directly effect eachother continuously.

So, using Time Error, I think I accidentally cut out the need for the Entity to begin with. lol. I'll need to think about this more.

IAmSerge

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2009, 12:08:10 pm »
oh, I know its a different thing.

just wanted to let you know if you hadn't seen it before

Eske

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Re: The Dreamline (slightly updated)
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2009, 03:19:41 am »
After further thought, I'm not sure if the "Entity" frame is still required.

So, I'm still keeping the name, Dreamline, in case I change my mind, but the nature of this idea may change dramatically in the next few days  (or not!)

Hopefully this is me making more headway, I'm so busy these days that I only have time to think about this right before I go to sleep.  :(

The Dreamline: Mechanics

The Dreamline is unique in that it avoids direct causality, but only for objects that actually time travel.

This was the piece I was missing.   Using Time Error (hopefully in the correct way), I can explain how Marle is able to remain alive while Ayla time travels. But first, a visual!


 O   <--- this is a ball
--------O--------     <--- the ball is moving on a path
----O----O----O----   <--- the ball knocks into the others on the path
----OO----O----   <--- The "knocking" represents the Critical Moment, aka Time X, explained in posts above

If I push the ball at point A, I can wait 10 minutes and watch it reach the ball at point B.   I can also time travel to point B and see that the ball I pushed indeed reached point B. 

^This is what happens with the Sun Stone, Black Omen, Sewer Diary (if you save Fritz), etc

But, if I am the ball, everything seems to be different. In the Chronoverse, if I am "pushed" from point A towards the "ball" at point B, and if I were to time travel beyond the 10 minutes needed to reach the ball at point B, I could witness a different ball approaching point Q.  This ball's motion rests on the apparent fact that I actually reached and hit the ball at point B in the past.

^ This is what happens with Ayla and Marle.

So how can this work?  For awhile, I had some issues, but then Time Error crossed my mind.  The idea relies on some faith (for now), so bear with me.

Perhaps time travelling creates a sort of "stretch" on the path between the Time X events.  This stretch could be infinite: you have unlimited time to do what you want and causality will never catch up, OR it could be limited by a form of Time Error:  Ayla's Time X for Marle comes up in 64milBC, so she has to return and conceive her child before a year on her personal timeline is up or Marle will vanish, regardless of Ayla's time travel status.  (Remember that if you spend X amount of time error in a different time period, that same amount of time will have passed in all other eras).

Why would this stretch occur?  Not 100% on it yet, but here is something I'll leave you with to think about:

Causality is a funny thing in CT.  Marle ceases to exist because Leene isn't saved at Time X.  But, unlike what would happen in the Grandfather Paradox, everyone still remembers that she did exist.  She was eradicated from 3D space, but not from the Timeline.

So, despite a change, some information from the "original version" still remains.
The nature of causality is certainly different from our own universe.   :o