PTime

[6502x86]

Hello, I would like to introduce you to a concept I have developed while wondering on the nature of our own universe. I think it applies beautifully to the Chrono Universe.

That concept is PTime.

PTime, pronounced P-Time originated with an extended version of the Many-Worlds Theorem I have developed. The Theorem is simple.

It is: "Every Infinityth of a second, an Infinite number of new Universes are generated from our Prime Universe, one for every possible probability. The most likely of these universes becomes the new Prime Universe. The cycle then repeats itself."

In Chrono terms, the Non-Prime Universes are then sent to the Darkness Beyond Time. In non-Chrono terms, the Non-Prime Universes are still extant, but the temperature is stuck at Absolute Zero. Why? Because there is only a finite amount of energy, all of which gets allocated to each new Prime Universe.

Now, that is close to, but not quite the whole story. You see, when I developed this theory, I still accepted the flawed idea of linear(In the four-D sense, not the common three-D one) time. Time is NOT linear.

Join me, if you will in a short thought-experiment. Imagine, if you will, a time-stop. We are looking at an airplane at thirty-thousand feet. Does the airplane just hang there? NO! it begins to fall. Time does NOT act on gravity. It is, rather, the other way around. Time acts on the Electroweak and Strong Nuclear forces. That is all.

So, If time has stopped, how can the airplane still fall? Well to begin with, what I described was not a true timestop. It was more a Time Egg-esque timestop. A true timestop is when everything in the universe exists at absolute zero, because time does not flow for a substance at absolute zero. Electrons freeze in their very orbits.

Back to our timestop-in-seeming. Why does the airplane fall? PTime. PTime is the causative factor behind the Many-Worlds Theorem above. Time as we see it advances because electrons advance from Point A to Point B in our brains, generating our consciousness as they do so. Time as it actually has effect on the universe exist as an extremely fast skipping from one set of probabilities to the next.

PTime is a Hyper-hypersphere, that is, the five dimensional spatial configuration which is equivalent to a sphere. It's dimensions are NOT infinite, because Infinity would imply binaryness¹. That said, it must be extremely large, and growing ever larger. Each set of five dimensional coordinates refers to a set of four dimensional parameters, "Probabilities" if you will, that, when energized, expand out to form a Prime Universe

Okay, so that's PTime. Not only does it kill the Marle Paradox, it also explains why time stops when Serge and Co. switch timelines. I'll take questions now.


¹In any infinite construct, you could only be in one of two places, the center, or the outermost point. All other locations would be meaningless, because in such a construct of infinite size, any point that is not the outermost is effectivley the center and vice-versa. Imagine you are in a spaceship, on the outermost point of the infinite construct. You could never make it to the center, because the center is infinitely far away. Thus, your are effectively always at the outermost point. The same applies if you are in the center trying to reach the outermost point.

[chrono eric]

Well first off, the Chronoverse is a fictional universe that may or may not have any relevance to anything in reality. Any game theory you come up with about the nature of time must predict with reasonable certainty all or most time travel aspects within the games.

Thought provoking stuff though, and welcome to the Time, Space, and Dimensions Forum! 

Now, as far as it is rendering the Marle Paradox moot, I'm assuming you mean that at that particular moment in time Marle ceases to exist because the universe has become a new Prime Universe in which Marle doesn't exist in the first place, right? Well, then there are problems with this. If you take the standpoint that the past, present, and future do not exist simulataneously but rather there is an "absolute present" at any given time, then there is no problem with Marle ceasing to exist as per your theory. However, you would also have to explain why Time Travellers Immunity/Time Bastard seem to be present and why PTime wouldn't also invalidate those in normal cases when it seems to be invalidating Marle's TTI by the very action of her ceasing to exist.

And while we are on the topic of real-world science, I just have to comment on a few things since your post makes a large number of scientific statements which are wrong:

In Chrono terms, the Non-Prime Universes are then sent to the Darkness Beyond Time. In non-Chrono terms, the Non-Prime Universes are still extant, but the temperature is stuck at Absolute Zero. Why? Because there is only a finite amount of energy, all of which gets allocated to each new Prime Universe.

Even at absolute zero there is still energy within the system. It possesses zero-point energy. A more correct description would be that at absolute zero there is no energy transference to other systems, and that the energy at absolute zero is the minimum amount of energy possible for a system.

Time does NOT act on gravity. It is, rather, the other way around. Time acts on the Electroweak and Strong Nuclear forces. That is all.

What a strange concept. What do you mean by this? By "action" you seem to imply that time acts like a force on the other fundamental forces of the universe. But this is not so. Space-time is a singular construct, and the particles that convey the fundamental forces of the universe such as the electromagnetic, electroweak and strong, and probably gravity too (once gravitons are discovered) reside within space-time and therefore are subject to both space and time. If your position is that time is not relevant to gravity, then should we not rewrite every single basic physics book that has time as a fundamental quantity to evaluate the position of an object due to the force of gravity?

Electrons freeze in their very orbits.

See my above analysis. Electrons do not "freeze" in their orbits at absolute zero as this would violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in which you cannot know the position and momentum of an electron at any given moment in time. Rather at absolute zero everything in the system, including electrons in their orbit, have the least energy physically possible. And for that matter, electrons don't even "orbit" around the nucleus as planets do around the sun. This is an erroneous concept. Think of the electron orbit more as a probability wave, at which during any given time the electron physically exists at a certain point.

Time as we see it advances because electrons advance from Point A to Point B in our brains, generating our consciousness as they do so.

Yet another strange concept. First off, electrons do not "advance from Point A to Point B" in our brains. The brain doesn't even use electrons to generate electric flow. It's counterintuitive, I know, since we are often confronted with the example of electrons flowing in wires in every day life. But neurons use an electrochemical ion gradient to generate electrical flow. It is very much like a battery in that there is a charge disparity across the neuronal cell membrane. The electricity doesn't actually "flow" through the neuronal axon as electrons flow in a wire, instead the membrane is electrically depolarized in linear sequence so that net result is a transmission of electrical charge which is not greatly dependent on the physical movement of ions.

And as for this electrical charge "generating our consciousness". If you know something every biologist, neurologist, and physician on the planet doesn't then you deserve a Nobel Prize. Nobody knows what produces consciousness. We don't even know what it is made of. All we know for sure is that the movement of electricity in our brain does not directly produce it. Instead, it seems to be the structural organization of the electromagnetic fields that result from that movement of activity that are important, which explains why consciousness is only associated with higher and "simpler" functions in the human and animal brain despite the fact that the unconscious mind performs much more complicated calculations. But we are no closer to figuring it out than we were fifty years ago.

Time as it actually has effect on the universe exist as an extremely fast skipping from one set of probabilities to the next.

And in this quote do you mean to imply that time is an illusion, and that we need our conscious minds to experience it? This would seem to invalidate the rest of your theory that time only acts on certain forces of the universe, and it would beg the question - "how did time pass before conscious beings existed?"

It is true that the sense of time is derived from the brain, and you can even completely shut down that sense of time using certain psychoactive chemicals - thus allowing an individual to perceive eternity. But this subjective sensation should not be confused with the objective conclusion that the persons consciousness is literally outside of time.

But perhaps I misinterpreted you here, and what you really meant was that our conscious sensation of the passage of time is different from how time really is in objective reality. And you say that the true nature of time is a constantly shifting set of probabilities, which we do not perceive.

[6502x86]

Thank you for the kind welcome!


Okay, lets start with real world, then!

In Chrono terms, the Non-Prime Universes are then sent to the Darkness Beyond Time. In non-Chrono terms, the Non-Prime Universes are still extant, but the temperature is stuck at Absolute Zero. Why? Because there is only a finite amount of energy, all of which gets allocated to each new Prime Universe.

Even at absolute zero there is still energy within the system. It possesses zero-point energy. A more correct description would be that at absolute zero there is no energy transference to other systems, and that the energy at absolute zero is the minimum amount of energy possible for a system.

I apologize, I was not completely clear on this. The common concept of Absolute Zero, and PTime's version of it are quite different. Zero-Point Energy is what a Prime Universe has that the others do not. Look, we know there is a limit to heat, the Planck Temperature, more colloquially called Absolute Hot. When we reach the Planck Temperature, all the laws of physics start making no sense in that they can no longer make an accurate prediction of what will happen. PTime's Absolute Zero is the Antithesis of this. There is no energy anywhere in any form. Everything is frozen. The laws of physics can no longer make accurate predictions because unlike with the Planck Temperature, where the energy of the system causes data to behave in new and unpredictable ways, the is no data flowing from anywhere. To the observer in three dimensions, that is, us, a universe under PTime's Absolute Zero would look like emptyness, or like an Event Horizon.

Time does NOT act on gravity. It is, rather, the other way around. Time acts on the Electroweak and Strong Nuclear forces. That is all.

What a strange concept. What do you mean by this? By "action" you seem to imply that time acts like a force on the other fundamental forces of the universe. But this is not so. Space-time is a singular construct, and the particles that convey the fundamental forces of the universe such as the electromagnetic, electroweak and strong, and probably gravity too (once gravitons are discovered) reside within space-time and therefore are subject to both space and time. If your position is that time is not relevant to gravity, then should we not rewrite every single basic physics book that has time as a fundamental quantity to evaluate the position of an object due to the force of gravity?

This is more poor wording on my part. What I meant to imply by this statement was simply that, while gravity has effects on Space, it lies more heavily on the time side of the border. If you concentrate a large mass in a small area, it will attract things toward it weakly. Extremley weakly. So weakly in fact, that all the gravity of earth cannot, or a black hole the mass of earth could not pull a refrigerator magnet from a refrigerator.(This is, of course, annulled once we reach the Event Horizon, but I'll get to that in a bit.) So anyways, gravity is really weak over space. But lets look at it's effects over time. Over time, the effects of gravity are so strong that two airplanes going around the planet in opposite directions at subsonic speeds generate enough time dilation to measure with a conventional atomic clock. So one might say that gravity is an incredibly powerful force that exerts most of it's effects on the time side of spacetime. The best example of this is an Event Horizon. As we approach a black hole, time dilation increases exponentially. Eventually, we reach a point where time flows so slowly that the space side of gravity is able to overpower every other force, and pull in every particle, even photons.

Electrons freeze in their very orbits.

See my above analysis. Electrons do not "freeze" in their orbits at absolute zero as this would violate the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in which you cannot know the position and momentum of an electron at any given moment in time. Rather at absolute zero everything in the system, including electrons in their orbit, have the least energy physically possible. And for that matter, electrons don't even "orbit" around the nucleus as planets do around the sun. This is an erroneous concept. Think of the electron orbit more as a probability wave, at which during any given time the electron physically exists at a certain point.

This was a metaphor aimed at nonscientists who read my post. Whether or not they actually froze in their orbits(and they would) would be irrelevant, because at PTime Absolute Zero, there would be no way to tell, because no information is being generated. In other words, Heisenberg is preserved, because when you look at PTime Absolute Zero, you see a void, and NOTHING else.

Time as we see it advances because electrons advance from Point A to Point B in our brains, generating our consciousness as they do so.

Yet another strange concept. First off, electrons do not "advance from Point A to Point B" in our brains. The brain doesn't even use electrons to generate electric flow. It's counterintuitive, I know, since we are often confronted with the example of electrons flowing in wires in every day life. But neurons use an electrochemical ion gradient to generate electrical flow. It is very much like a battery in that there is a charge disparity across the neuronal cell membrane. The electricity doesn't actually "flow" through the neuronal axon as electrons flow in a wire, instead the membrane is electrically depolarized in linear sequence so that net result is a transmission of electrical charge which is not greatly dependent on the physical movement of ions.

And as for this electrical charge "generating our consciousness". If you know something every biologist, neurologist, and physician on the planet doesn't then you deserve a Nobel Prize. Nobody knows what produces consciousness. We don't even know what it is made of. All we know for sure is that the movement of electricity in our brain does not directly produce it. Instead, it seems to be the structural organization of the electromagnetic fields that result from that movement of activity that are important, which explains why consciousness is only associated with higher and "simpler" functions in the human and animal brain despite the fact that the unconscious mind performs much more complicated calculations. But we are no closer to figuring it out than we were fifty years ago.

I must confess, I only have general knowledge of the function of our brains.

To simplify what I was saying: Our perceptions and minds are dependent on constant neuronal activity. If no neurons are firing, we do not exist(In a subjective sense.). While the movment of electricity in our brain does not directly produce consciousness, this is somewhat akin to saying the CPU of you computer does not directly produce Niko Bellic on your computer screen. Technically, it's true, it's the GPU that draws Niko. Pull out the CPU though, and he'll vanish. Similarly, while neurons firing do not directly produce consciousness, if no neurons are firing, you are not conscious.

Time as it actually has effect on the universe exist as an extremely fast skipping from one set of probabilities to the next.

And in this quote do you mean to imply that time is an illusion, and that we need our conscious minds to experience it? This would seem to invalidate the rest of your theory that time only acts on certain forces of the universe, and it would beg the question - "how did time pass before conscious beings existed?"

It is true that the sense of time is derived from the brain, and you can even completely shut down that sense of time using certain psychoactive chemicals - thus allowing an individual to perceive eternity. But this subjective sensation should not be confused with the objective conclusion that the persons consciousness is literally outside of time.

But perhaps I misinterpreted you here, and what you really meant was that our conscious sensation of the passage of time is different from how time really is in objective reality. And you say that the true nature of time is a constantly shifting set of probabilities, which we do not perceive.

Bingo. And where can I get some of those chemicals!? 



Okay, now on to CT.

Well first off, the Chronoverse is a fictional universe that may or may not have any relevance to anything in reality. Any game theory you come up with about the nature of time must predict with reasonable certainty all or most time travel aspects within the games.

Thought provoking stuff though, and welcome to the Time, Space, and Dimensions Forum! 

Now, as far as it is rendering the Marle Paradox moot, I'm assuming you mean that at that particular moment in time Marle ceases to exist because the universe has become a new Prime Universe in which Marle doesn't exist in the first place, right? Well, then there are problems with this. If you take the standpoint that the past, present, and future do not exist simulataneously but rather there is an "absolute present" at any given time, then there is no problem with Marle ceasing to exist as per your theory. However, you would also have to explain why Time Travellers Immunity/Time Bastard seem to be present and why PTime wouldn't also invalidate those in normal cases when it seems to be invalidating Marle's TTI by the very action of her ceasing to exist.

Actually, under PTime, all fiction has it's own universe where it is real and extant, but that universe is non-Prime.(Ours is Prime, of course.)

Seriously though, until I have time to digest the TB and TTI docs, I can't answer you on this one. I kind of just jumped in with only a cursory go-through of the research you guys have built up. It's a bad habit of mine.

[chrono eric]

This is more poor wording on my part. What I meant to imply by this statement was simply that, while gravity has effects on Space, it lies more heavily on the time side of the border. If you concentrate a large mass in a small area, it will attract things toward it weakly. Extremley weakly. So weakly in fact, that all the gravity of earth cannot, or a black hole the mass of earth could not pull a refrigerator magnet from a refrigerator.(This is, of course, annulled once we reach the Event Horizon, but I'll get to that in a bit.) So anyways, gravity is really weak over space. But lets look at it's effects over time. Over time, the effects of gravity are so strong that two airplanes going around the planet in opposite directions at subsonic speeds generate enough time dilation to measure with a conventional atomic clock. So one might say that gravity is an incredibly powerful force that exerts most of it's effects on the time side of spacetime. The best example of this is an Event Horizon. As we approach a black hole, time dilation increases exponentially. Eventually, we reach a point where time flows so slowly that the space side of gravity is able to overpower every other force, and pull in every particle, even photons.

Well, a more correct way to say it is that the effects of gravity on space and time are equal, because space-time is equal. Space and time are not separate from each other as we conventionally think of them. However, time dilation (which is the result of the warping of space-time) gives the illusion that time is more severely affected, because time is what we experience in the airplane example - not space. In reality though, they are equally affected.

Whether or not they actually froze in their orbits(and they would)

They wouldn't in the real world, unless you are talking about Absolute Zero in your PTime theory and not what happens at Absolute Zero in the real world.

Similarly, while neurons firing do not directly produce consciousness, if no neurons are firing, you are not conscious.

This is counter-intuitive, but believe it or not this is not true. It is possible to damage the brain specifically by cutting the corticothalamic circuit, and the person becomes a vegetable. But the rest of the brain is still 100% functional. Consciousness appears to only be associated with certain circuits in the brain. The vast majority of the brain actually processes information unconsciously. For example, before you become consciously aware of what you are looking at, your visual cortex has already processed the incoming information from your optic nerve, arranged it into an image, classified objects and accessed your memory to quickly identify objects. All this occurs before you are even aware of it. This is a well-known phenomenon with all aspects of neuronal function and it demonstrates that consciousness is not simply an epiphenomenon of brain function. It is much more enigmatic than that.

Bingo. And where can I get some of those chemicals!? 

Well, if you are legitimately interested in that and not joking, check out this thread of mine - "On the Spiritual Uses of Mind Altering Substances":

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6624.0.html

Most of the thread is about the religious use of Salvia divinorum, but I believe I also mentioned dimethyltryptamine somewhere in there. Both are dissociative psychedelics. Salvia divinorum, which contains the active chemical Salvinorin A, is the most potent naturally occurring psychedelic drug on the planet and is also the most powerful psychedelic drug known to man. And it is 100% legal in all states except for Florida. Among the many profound effects it produces are living life as inanimate objects and perceiving the stopping of time or all eternity.

If ever you would consider doing it, I recommend you read as much about it as possible and PM me if you want to ask any personal questions. It is an experience that changes lives, but can also be mentally intimidating.

Most other psychedelic chemicals produce profound time-dilation perceptive effects as well. It is one of the most commonly reported sensations of psyche's like LSD, peyote, and psilocybe mushrooms. But you have to take a high enough dose to "perceive eternity". Most of them are actually legal too and acquired through research chemical web sites; however, because of the wording of the Analog Drug Law, you could be potentially prosecuted for possession of them. 2c-e, for example, is known to actually produce the sensation of stopping time in the physical world in a high enough dose. Several self-experimenters reported watching a ball bounce, then seeing it in frame-by-frame shots, and then seeing it stop and hang in midair. Usually these effects are associated with profound hallucinations in which you don't even realize you exist within the universe anymore, which is what makes that unique.

Seriously though, until I have time to digest the TB and TTI docs, I can't answer you on this one. I kind of just jumped in with only a cursory go-through of the research you guys have built up. It's a bad habit of mine.

I brought it up because TTI/TB work so well for the Chronoverse that your theory would have to accomodate them somehow. Check them out, it's an interesting read.

[Eske]

6502x86, thank you, seriously.

If you take the standpoint that the past, present, and future do not exist simulataneously but rather there is an "absolute present" at any given time, then there is no problem with Marle ceasing to exist as per your theory. However, you would also have to explain why Time Travellers Immunity/Time Bastard seem to be present and why PTime wouldn't also invalidate those in normal cases when it seems to be invalidating Marle's TTI by the very action of her ceasing to exist

Not exactly.  Remember the other thread where I mentioned that Marle might suffer reverse-time bastard to preserve Conservation?    Everything seemed to work out but there was one issue:  why did Marle disappear at that specific time?  Why not when she first arrived, or why not remain until Leene's death?

PTime wins.   My problem was that I couldn't pinpoint the "Time X" where Leene is no longer able to be saved.  PTime does though.....

As 6502x86 said, every [unit of time] a new Prime Universe is generated among infinite possibilities - the most likely one becomes the Prime Universe.   

So, for the Marle Paradox, Marle's arrival starts this epic countdown until the probability Leene will be saved will drop below 50%.  At 49.999~, a new Prime Universe will be created where Leene is not saved and the probability of all events concerning Leene in the future will be reduced to 0, thus all descendants (including Marle) will vanish.  This preserves Conservation.

What about TTI/TB?  No problem - when you travel, you break the chains of causality.  So Marle never has to exist in the future in order for her TTI to be preserved in 600AD.  The catch is that to a 600AD observer, it would appear as though no one exited the gate.  See below...   

chrono eric,  in one of our other threads we showed that after the RU point, TTI would be preserved, but the occupants of the gate would be TB'ed upon entry to preserve Conservation. (Gives the illusion that TTI is not preserved.)    This is the same thing.
TB works a little harder, and there is no strain on TTI - everything fits comfortably.

[6502x86]

This is more poor wording on my part. What I meant to imply by this statement was simply that, while gravity has effects on Space, it lies more heavily on the time side of the border. If you concentrate a large mass in a small area, it will attract things toward it weakly. Extremley weakly. So weakly in fact, that all the gravity of earth cannot, or a black hole the mass of earth could not pull a refrigerator magnet from a refrigerator.(This is, of course, annulled once we reach the Event Horizon, but I'll get to that in a bit.) So anyways, gravity is really weak over space. But lets look at it's effects over time. Over time, the effects of gravity are so strong that two airplanes going around the planet in opposite directions at subsonic speeds generate enough time dilation to measure with a conventional atomic clock. So one might say that gravity is an incredibly powerful force that exerts most of it's effects on the time side of spacetime. The best example of this is an Event Horizon. As we approach a black hole, time dilation increases exponentially. Eventually, we reach a point where time flows so slowly that the space side of gravity is able to overpower every other force, and pull in every particle, even photons.

Well, a more correct way to say it is that the effects of gravity on space and time are equal, because space-time is equal. Space and time are not separate from each other as we conventionally think of them. However, time dilation (which is the result of the warping of space-time) gives the illusion that time is more severely affected, because time is what we experience in the airplane example - not space. In reality though, they are equally affected.

Spacetime is a single entity, yest, but viewing them as a singular object, for example "This rock is Spacetime." is no more correct than "This rock is Space, That other rock is Time.". My personal view on the whole spacetime affair is that Spacetime is in the middle of a Symmetry Break(much like how other forces have emerged as singular entities as the universe moves down from higher energy states.) Since Space is trying to tear itself from Time, and vice-versa the correct view of Spacetime is more like a spectrum. I've included a chart to approximate what I'm trying to say, because it is a little hard to explain.



The airplane example was illustrative of a concept that is really hard to explain with words, but I'll try. When Time alone stops, Space continues to iterate. The absence of time removes the ability for Spatial Forces, those forces unable to affect time to work. In a this kind of timestop, all kinds of weird shit happens. I was trying to explaind why such a stop could never work naturally in practice.

Whether or not they actually froze in their orbits(and they would)

They wouldn't in the real world, unless you are talking about Absolute Zero in your PTime theory and not what happens at Absolute Zero in the real world.

From now on, lets call PTime's Absolute Zero Planck Bottom, to avoid confusion.

Similarly, while neurons firing do not directly produce consciousness, if no neurons are firing, you are not conscious.

This is counter-intuitive, but believe it or not this is not true. It is possible to damage the brain specifically by cutting the corticothalamic circuit, and the person becomes a vegetable. But the rest of the brain is still 100% functional. Consciousness appears to only be associated with certain circuits in the brain. The vast majority of the brain actually processes information unconsciously. For example, before you become consciously aware of what you are looking at, your visual cortex has already processed the incoming information from your optic nerve, arranged it into an image, classified objects and accessed your memory to quickly identify objects. All this occurs before you are even aware of it. This is a well-known phenomenon with all aspects of neuronal function and it demonstrates that consciousness is not simply an epiphenomenon of brain function. It is much more enigmatic than that.

I said: If no neurons are firing, you are not conscious. This does not preclude some neurons firing, and you still not being conscious. It's like pulling the ram from a computer instead of the CPU: The machine still works, but only for the most basic of tasks.

Bingo. And where can I get some of those chemicals!? 

Well, if you are legitimately interested in that and not joking, check out this thread of mine - "On the Spiritual Uses of Mind Altering Substances":

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6624.0.html

Most of the thread is about the religious use of Salvia divinorum, but I believe I also mentioned dimethyltryptamine somewhere in there. Both are dissociative psychedelics. Salvia divinorum, which contains the active chemical Salvinorin A, is the most potent naturally occurring psychedelic drug on the planet and is also the most powerful psychedelic drug known to man. And it is 100% legal in all states except for Florida. Among the many profound effects it produces are living life as inanimate objects and perceiving the stopping of time or all eternity.

If ever you would consider doing it, I recommend you read as much about it as possible and PM me if you want to ask any personal questions. It is an experience that changes lives, but can also be mentally intimidating.

Most other psychedelic chemicals produce profound time-dilation perceptive effects as well. It is one of the most commonly reported sensations of psyche's like LSD, peyote, and psilocybe mushrooms. But you have to take a high enough dose to "perceive eternity". Most of them are actually legal too and acquired through research chemical web sites; however, because of the wording of the Analog Drug Law, you could be potentially prosecuted for possession of them. 2c-e, for example, is known to actually produce the sensation of stopping time in the physical world in a high enough dose. Several self-experimenters reported watching a ball bounce, then seeing it in frame-by-frame shots, and then seeing it stop and hang in midair. Usually these effects are associated with profound hallucinations in which you don't even realize you exist within the universe anymore, which is what makes that unique.

I was half serious. At the present time, circumstances make it impossible for me to procure and use anything strongly psychoactive without endangering(not physically, mind you) people around me whom I care a great deal about. I'm a moderately experienced psychonaut in my own right, however. I'm pretty well educated too, I've been reading erowid as a hobby for two years, I've been reading books about psychoactives in general since I was in third grade. Once I return to the states and get an apartment of my own, I'll probably buy some HBWs for decoration.

6502x86, thank you, seriously.

Nah, I should thank you. With your post, which I read in my cursory go-through mentioned above, you motivated me to post!

[chrono eric]

So, for the Marle Paradox, Marle's arrival starts this epic countdown until the probability Leene will be saved will drop below 50%.  At 49.999~, a new Prime Universe will be created where Leene is not saved and the probability of all events concerning Leene in the future will be reduced to 0, thus all descendants (including Marle) will vanish.  This preserves Conservation.

Ah, yes Eske! You are right. PTime actually predicts this. But isn't this almost exactly what I said in the other thread?

But we were discussing the possibility of Marle not having to disappear at "Time Y" as you name it, or at the exact moment that Leene dies. If the future is undetermined until people make actions in the present in the Chronoverse, then what if the actions of some random soldier in Guardia castle for example make it 100% certain that Queen Leene would die in the future? Would Marle disappear at that moment or only when Queen Leene disappears? Why not at that exact moment, as that would be the first link in a change of causality that would ultimately lead to her death? Or would she disappear if Crono and co. would save her anyways?

I just didn't have a theory framework to back it up  . So what I recommend for PTime is, keep all the stuff about a Prime Universe being actualized at any given moment and all other universes being sent to the DBT, but ditch everything else related to Absolute Zero and other such things.

Why? For two reasons: 1) Because it makes it unnecessarily complicated and 2) Because the theory is only important insofar as it predicts events in the game. Adding stuff about why it works that way is unnecessary. For example, TTI and TB are great theories that predict a ton of events in the game. The Compendium tries to rationalize why they work based on Conservation of mass/energy. But it's not necessary, because they still work just fine by saying they exist just to prevent paradoxes from arising.

I said: If no neurons are firing, you are not conscious. This does not preclude some neurons firing, and you still not being conscious. It's like pulling the ram from a computer instead of the CPU: The machine still works, but only for the most basic of tasks.

Ah, I misunderstood you. But I just wanted to drive the point across that in reality, most of your neurons can fire and you still aren't conscious. It is only a select few (comparitively speaking) that seem to be important for consciousness. Which, on a side note, is the singular most important and most interesting scientific topic I think - which leads directly into:

I was half serious. At the present time, circumstances make it impossible for me to procure and use anything strongly psychoactive without endangering(not physically, mind you) people around me whom I care a great deal about. I'm a moderately experienced psychonaut in my own right, however. I'm pretty well educated too, I've been reading erowid as a hobby for two years, I've been reading books about psychoactives in general since I was in third grade. Once I return to the states and get an apartment of my own, I'll probably buy some HBWs for decoration.

No shit? What are the odds of that. Most people here seem completely against the idea of exploring ones consciousness using psychoactives. I was originally introduced to it via a spiritual ceremony. It was a lifechanging experience. Erowid is a great resource for safety purposes, as are TiHKAL and PiHKAL - but I'm sure you already know that.  By HBW's I'm assuming you mean Hawaiian Baby Woodroses, right?

I predict that me and you will have some good PM conversations together. If you are a moderately experienced psychonaut and you have not gone down the Salvia divinorum route yet, I should warn you that even if you are the most experienced psychonaut in the world it will not prepare you for the experience if you do it correctly. The only thing it is comparable to is DMT. Smoked, not ayahuasca brew. The Salvinorin A will shoot you into another universe and throw you back and forth between dimensions before dropping you back off in this reality making you wonder whether or not it's the "real" one. But if you've already been there then I'm just preaching to the choir. 

[6502x86]

First, New chart, my last one was incompatible with current science, and thus Facepalm-worthy.


Okay, now on to the reply proper.

So what I recommend for PTime is, keep all the stuff about a Prime Universe being actualized at any given moment and all other universes being sent to the DBT, but ditch everything else related to Absolute Zero and other such things.

Why? For two reasons: 1) Because it makes it unnecessarily complicated and 2) Because the theory is only important insofar as it predicts events in the game. Adding stuff about why it works that way is unnecessary. For example, TTI and TB are great theories that predict a ton of events in the game. The Compendium tries to rationalize why they work based on Conservation of mass/energy. But it's not necessary, because they still work just fine by saying they exist just to prevent paradoxes from arising.

Well, sure.. Perhaps if I had worked out PTime for the sole purpose of predicting events in cross and trigger, I would agree. Problem is, I worked PTime out as a description of how our universe works, and it just happened to fit the Chrono Series nicely.  That baggage that makes it complex is designed to help keep PTime following certain Laws, especially the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Also, the Planck Bottom is an ironclad requirement for PTime to work. (Think about it for awhile, and you'll see why.)

I was half serious. At the present time, circumstances make it impossible for me to procure and use anything strongly psychoactive without endangering(not physically, mind you) people around me whom I care a great deal about. I'm a moderately experienced psychonaut in my own right, however. I'm pretty well educated too, I've been reading erowid as a hobby for two years, I've been reading books about psychoactives in general since I was in third grade. Once I return to the states and get an apartment of my own, I'll probably buy some HBWs for decoration.

No shit? What are the odds of that. Most people here seem completely against the idea of exploring ones consciousness using psychoactives. I was originally introduced to it via a spiritual ceremony. It was a lifechanging experience. Erowid is a great resource for safety purposes, as are TiHKAL and PiHKAL - but I'm sure you already know that.  By HBW's I'm assuming you mean Hawaiian Baby Woodroses, right?

I predict that me and you will have some good PM conversations together. If you are a moderately experienced psychonaut and you have not gone down the Salvia divinorum route yet, I should warn you that even if you are the most experienced psychonaut in the world it will not prepare you for the experience if you do it correctly. The only thing it is comparable to is DMT. Smoked, not ayahuasca brew. The Salvinorin A will shoot you into another universe and throw you back and forth between dimensions before dropping you back off in this reality making you wonder whether or not it's the "real" one. But if you've already been there then I'm just preaching to the choir. 

Yep. HBWs have the advantage of being nice houseplants in addition to having the highest amount of Amides in any plant possesing such..

Yeah, my experiences lie mostly on the non-chemical side of the fence.  This has a lot to do with me being a military kid. If anything psychoactive was found on me, it would be my fathers fault(legally speaking) and his career would be invalidated. He's worked twenty years to be able to retire with full veteran benefits, and I cannot risk his career for my experimentations. Still, this might actually be a good thing. I have a lot of experience meditating, I've been constantly practicing for seven years. I also use binaurals. Recently, I hit a HUGE milestone.

On the chemical side, eh, I'll leave that for PMs.

The DEA and D.A.R.E, their foreign equivalents, and anti-psychoactive lobbies in general are powerful agencies of Perception Editing. I could write an entire post on their campaign of misinformation. But I won't. Not here, anyway. Oh, but I will mention that in third grade, while I was still credulous of them, they had me believing that Marijuana was a mutated strain of Tobacco that caused stupidity, infertility and cancer. Oh, and you injected it with an IV. Lies? Yeah, kinda.

Okay, enough about Psychonautry. It's too off topic. chrono eric, let us continue talking about it via PM.

[chrono eric]

One thing that your theory needs to explain is why Lavos/Schala exist in the DBT as physical entities when everything is supposed to be in a state of absolute zero/zero information flow to the "Prime Universe".

[6502x86]

We know the Lavos is able to generate a pocket dimension, right? Under PTime, the dimension is a universe unto itself. Lavos as the Time Devourer just applied this power(Generating a small Prime Universe all it's own) for a slightly different purpose. Rather than making a closed Pocket Dimension, it made an open one. The bright blue ring on the outside of the battlefield is that boundary.

[chrono eric]

Well, the pocket dimension theory is pretty much moot now, check out this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,4999.30.html

It is in a position where we can safely abandon it and work theories around it.

[6502x86]

That's a very interesting topic with huge implications about the fundamental nature of Lavos. I'll post there shortly.

The Pocket Dimension that Lavos as the Time Devourer generates is quite different from the one the Lavos of CT makes. The TD's pocket dimension is more then just a bubble. It's an interface that The TD uses to scan for the Prime Universe. Once The TD finds the Prime Universe, it eats, of course.