Is dimensional travel a prerequisite to reach the DBT?

[chrono eric]

So, this thread is going to be rather simple and straightforward compared to the epic discussions that we have been having on this board recently. 

I pose a simple question: "Is dimensional travel a prerequisite for an individual to travel to the Darkness Beyond Time?"

I originally asked this question in FaustWolf's thread about what causes a gate to the DBT to appear, but that discussion seems to have died.

Here is some evidence in favor of this being true:

In both Chrono Cross and Chrono Trigger DS, the characters travel across dimensions before they are allowed to go to the Darkness Beyond Time. In Chrono Cross the gate to the Darkness Beyond Time appears after Serge acquires the Time Egg from Belthesar (but presumably it could have been there all along and he just couldn't access it). In CTDS the Gate to the DBT and the Dream Devourer appears after the party travels through the Dimensional Vortexes.

Some evidence that is potentially contrary to this idea:

Schala goes directly to the DBT to merge with Lavos and become the Dream Devourer in Chrono Trigger. Was this a special case? I see no reason why it would be.


If dimensional travel is required before an individual can travel to the DBT, then this has some rather important plot implications for Chrono Cross:

Often the question is brought up - "So why did Belthesar have to split the dimensions in his grand-master plan to defeat the Time Devourer? What was the point of it all?".

Well, if an individual needs to traverse a dimension before he can travel to the Darkness Beyond Time, then the dimensional split was a necessary part of Belthesar's plan to defeat the Time Devourer. In other words, if this is true, then the Time Devourer could not be defeated if the dimensions were not split. Serge was a necessary part of the plan from the start because in the original timeline before the split he made contact with the Frozen Flame, became the Arbiter, and then died. By splitting the dimensions and allowing Serge to live and cross the dimensions at a future date, a chain of events was set in place that could lead to the defeat of the Time Devourer.

So if dimensional travel is a prerequisite for travel to the DBT, then this suggests that the Time Devourer could be defeated in no other way and Belthesar's plan was 100% relevant from the start.

Discuss!

[BROJ]

Can it be classified 'dimensional travel' if one is traveling to a virtual imaginary space? Home World to Another World and vice versa -- sure. But, Home/Another World to the DBT is dubious under the classification.
So to answer the question of the topic... mu. That is to say, to deny that one isn't leaving their dimension to go to the DBT is false, but saying that one is going to another 'dimension' is unfounded. That is my muse... at least for now!

[chrono eric]

Well, whether or not travelling to the DBT counts as dimensional travel is not important. What is potentially relevant is the dimensional travel that occurs before a person can go to the DBT.

Ex: Two individuals, called Traveller A and B want to go to the DBT. Traveller A crosses to another dimension and comes back again. Traveller B does not. Can both of them equally access the DBT, or can only Traveller A access it because he has already undergone dimensional travel?

That was the crux of the question I asked. Sorry if it was ambiguous in any way. Whether or not the DBT counts as another dimension - or as an interdimensional space - doesn't matter. It seems to be somehow connected to dimensional travel in the Chrono series.

[BROJ]

Well, whether or not travelling to the DBT counts as dimensional travel is not important. What is potentially relevant is the dimensional travel that occurs before a person can go to the DBT.

Ex: Two individuals, called Traveller A and B want to go to the DBT. Traveller A crosses to another dimension and comes back again. Traveller B does not. Can both of them equally access the DBT, or can only Traveller A access it because he has already undergone dimensional travel?

That was the crux of the question I asked. Sorry if it was ambiguous in any way. Whether or not the DBT counts as another dimension - or as an interdimensional space - doesn't matter. It seems to be somehow connected to dimensional travel in the Chrono series.

Based on the question pressed, I would still say not enough solid information is given to posit the reality of the matter. (the given information being mostly circumstantial) But for the sake of pure speculation, I would say no, for vis á vis my aforementioned axioms. This mostly because the DBT existed before the time crash, and, like you said, Schala went straight to the DBT without phasing dimensions -- passing go without collecting her $200, so to speak.

What I would say is required is a time egg(or Schala's Pendent as it display temporal anomalies with Marle and Crono in the beginning of CT), a desire to go to the DBT and dreamstone. In all cases, said ingredients are present. Edit: Oh, and a distortional anomaly(or within close proximity of one) such as the Mammon Machine, the Angeles Errare or the bucket at the EoT.

[Zergplex]

Based on the question pressed, I would still say not enough solid information is given to posit the reality of the matter. (the given information being mostly circumstantial) But for the sake of pure speculation, I would say no, for vis á vis my aforementioned axioms. This mostly because the DBT existed before the time crash, and, like you said, Schala went straight to the DBT without phasing dimensions -- passing go without collecting her $200, so to speak.

What I would say is required is a time egg(or Schala's Pendent as it display temporal anomalies with Marle and Crono in the beginning of CT), a desire to go to the DBT and dreamstone. In all cases, said ingredients are present. Edit: Oh, and a distortional anomaly(or within close proximity of one) such as the Mammon Machine, the Angeles Errare or the bucket at the EoT.

Would listing Schala's pendant and dreamstone in the same list be redundant? Since the pendant is made of dreamstone (as is the Mammon Machine for that matter).

[chrono eric]

This mostly because the DBT existed before the time crash, and, like you said, Schala went straight to the DBT without phasing dimensions -- passing go without collecting her $200, so to speak.

I brought that up as the only known example in the series in which someone goes directly to the DBT without first traversing dimensions. One example stacked against many. Perhaps it shows that dimensional travel is not a prerequisite, or perhaps it is an exception to the rule. The gates that opened at the Ocean Palace during that event seemed to fling people every where - to the future, to the End of Time, and to the Darkness Beyond Time.

I don't think that the Schala situation is really that troubling, I just like being fair by criticizing my own hypotheses. After all, the normal rules of travelling to the EoT are that three or more party members from different eras must enter a Gate, but Gaspar bypassed that and was sent directly to the EoT from the Ocean Palace. If the rules of travelling to the DBT are that someone must first undergo dimensional travel of some sort, then it doesn't seem troubling to me at all that Schala could be sent there directly as an exception just as Gaspar was to the EoT.

As for Schala's pendant/a Time Egg being necessary - Well, the Time Egg isn't used to access the DBT in Chrono Trigger, only in Cross. Schala's pendant (and thus dreamstone) is present in both cases, but the fact remains - why did the gates to the DBT not appear until after the party had undergone dimensional travel? For plot convenience? Perhaps, that's a possibility. Another possibility is what this thread is about.

[BROJ]

This mostly because the DBT existed before the time crash, and, like you said, Schala went straight to the DBT without phasing dimensions -- passing go without collecting her $200, so to speak.

As for Schala's pendant/a Time Egg being necessary - Well, the Time Egg isn't used to access the DBT in Chrono Trigger, only in Cross. Schala's pendant (and thus dreamstone) is present in both cases, but the fact remains - why did the gates to the DBT not appear until after the party had undergone dimensional travel? For plot convenience? Perhaps, that's a possibility. Another possibility is what this thread is about.

What's in the bucket? Eh? Though it's not said, it is implied by it's ability to transport a person/party to a specific(as in not relative; i.e. the Day of Lavos) time/space -- a common attribute of a time egg(e.g. Kid's past, Day of Lavos or Crono in the Ocean Palace.) As for the split; it was a consequence of pulling Dinopolis into the Keystone dimension. (Said experiment theoretically brought both Dinopolis and Chronopolis to 12,000BC to battle setting up the course of events that brought into the existence of El Nido).

[Eske]

Am I correct in saying that Lavos was "on his way" to the DBT or "inside" the DBT when he pulled Schala?

If so, Schala's dimensional travel resume is meaningless.  She didn't choose to enter the Darkness Beyond Time, Lavos - a being that had already traversed, or was in the middle of traversing dimensions, was forcing her to go there.

A real world example might be... a human would need to evolve some capability to withstand the pressures of deep deep water in order to survive there.  But if you are taking a ride in a submarine, you can bypass that necessity.

[BROJ]

Am I correct in saying that Lavos was "on his way" to the DBT or "inside" the DBT when he pulled Schala?

If so, Schala's dimensional travel resume is meaningless.  She didn't choose to enter the Darkness Beyond Time, Lavos - a being that had already traversed, or was in the middle of traversing dimensions, was forcing her to go there.

A real world example might be... a human would need to evolve some capability to withstand the pressures of deep deep water in order to survive there.  But if you are taking a ride in a submarine, you can bypass that necessity.

Though it's not completely canon, Radical Dreamers is our best source for what happened during the Schala incident:

When Crono was killed at the Ocean Palace and Zeal fell during the events of Chrono Trigger, Schala survived the incident and felt responsible for the destruction of her kingdom. She became gravely distraught, and only desired to die. The Frozen Flame (a shard of Lavos that came off his shell when he crashed), which had been interred in the Mammon Machine, lay near to her. Feeling her wish, it subsequently scattered her memories and unaged her to an infant, then sent her thousands of years through time to the modern era (after 1000 A.D.). In the interim, the Frozen Flame was presumably held by the Kingdom of Guardia, which probably fell around the time the infant Schala was introduced to the modern era. There, the infant was adopted by Lucca and named Kid; Lucca gave Kid a Time Egg for safekeeping as she grew up. Lucca also told Kid about the Frozen Flame, a powerful artifact that she wanted to bury with a fallen comrade someday. Kid promised to one day acquire the Frozen Flame so it could be buried with Lucca's friend (presumably Crono, who probably wasn't revived after his death in the Radical Dreamers dimension).

She wanted to not exist and presumably, the Frozen Flame observed her request. Though, what's not said(added by CC), is that like the Dragon God sealing, the TD/DD/Lavos via the FF(Frozen Flame), while preforming it's task, absorbs their essence within itself(i.e. the Dragon God leaving the separate 7 Dragon Gods, or in this case, speculatively, Schala leaving Kid). This is mainly speculation, but it has some backing.

[chrono eric]

What's in the bucket? Eh? Though it's not said, it is implied by it's ability to transport a person/party to a specific(as in not relative; i.e. the Day of Lavos) time/space -- a common attribute of a time egg(e.g. Kid's past, Day of Lavos or Crono in the Ocean Palace.)

This is even more circumstantial than the evidence that travellers need to first cross dimensions before accessing the DBT.

As for the split; it was a consequence of pulling Dinopolis into the Keystone dimension. (Said experiment theoretically brought both Dinopolis and Chronopolis to 12,000BC to battle setting up the course of events that brought into the existence of El Nido).

This is not so. The effect of Chronopolis/Dinopolis did lead to the creation of the El Nido Islands but it did not lead to the split.

Remember, there was an intermediate timeline that existed in which the dimensions were not split. In this timeline Serge died in 1010 A.D. Then, Kid travels back in time at a future date to save him, which somehow (completely unknown as to how) caused the dimensions to split.

A schematic view of it would look like this:

Time Error 0:  Chronopolis/Dinopolis exist in 12,000 BC ---- El Nido Islands are created ----- Serge dies in 1010 A.D. ----- Kid travels back in time to save Serge

Time Error 1: Chronopolis/Dinopolis exist in 12,000 BC ----- El Nido Islands are created ----- Kid appears in 1010 A.D. and saves Serge --> Dimensions are split at this point


So it was the act of saving Serge that somehow caused the dimensions to split. How this was different from normal acts of time travel that rewrite the past without splitting dimensions is unknown and not explained in the game. But one thing is for certain - Chronopolis and Dinopolis were not directly causative of the dimensional split. Necessary for Belthesar's plan, yes.

[BROJ]

As for the split; it was a consequence of pulling Dinopolis into the Keystone dimension. (Said experiment theoretically brought both Dinopolis and Chronopolis to 12,000BC to battle setting up the course of events that brought into the existence of El Nido).

This is not so. The effect of Chronopolis/Dinopolis did lead to the creation of the El Nido Islands but it did not lead to the split.

Remember, there was an intermediate timeline that existed in which the dimensions were not split. In this timeline Serge died in 1010 A.D. Then, Kid travels back in time at a future date to save him, which somehow (completely unknown as to how) caused the dimensions to split.

A schematic view of it would look like this:

Time Error 0:  Chronopolis/Dinopolis exist in 12,000 BC ---- El Nido Islands are created ----- Serge dies in 1010 A.D. ----- Kid travels back in time to save Serge

Time Error 1: Chronopolis/Dinopolis exist in 12,000 BC ----- El Nido Islands are created ----- Kid appears in 1010 A.D. and saves Serge --> Dimensions are split at this point


So it was the act of saving Serge that somehow caused the dimensions to split. How this was different from normal acts of time travel that rewrite the past without splitting dimensions is unknown and not explained in the game. But one thing is for certain - Chronopolis and Dinopolis were not directly causative of the dimensional split. Necessary for Belthesar's plan, yes.

Though, I would concede on my position; I would move that you are incorrect as well.

The Time Crash was a cataclystmic temporal distortion that hurled Chronopolis and the Sea of Eden ten thousand years into the past. It grew out of the Counter-Time Experiment, an effort to master control over time through the use of the Frozen Flame. Specifically, Group 3B released the Frozen Flame's lock-level to D in order to trace something called the counter-time effect. This caused Chronopolis to become exposed to Lavos somehow, who placed the institute ten thousand years in the past in hopes of disrupting Crono's quest. From outside view, the Time Crash appeared as a giant, black energy dome erupting from the center of the time research institution.

Ironically, though I'm going to support your original position you in the form of a quasi-Dimensional Conservation Theorum. In that like:

All time Gates naturally connect two points in time and space, but at times each travel destination may connect to the End of Time. Other than Spekkio, Gaspar is the only person who resides there. Since Gaspar is the Guru of Time, he is responsible for Gates connecting to the End of Time, Conservation of Time theorem nonwithstanding. He decides if and when Gates will connect to the pillars at the End of Time. He may also have to witness a Gate used in order to acknowledge it and link it at the End of Time. The only requirement is that Crono and his crew have to find and use a Gate for it to link to the End of Time. As Gaspar put it:

Once you've been through a Gate,
you can always use it to come here.

The situation would be that a party would need to find and use a Dimension Gate, an AE, to use it to connect to the DBT.

That said, I would say that the bucket containing a time egg is not as circumstantial as one would think. It does display the abilities of a time egg, and unless it contains Schala's Pendent, Occam's Razor applies.

[chrono eric]

Right, Lavos was attempting to disrupt Crono's quest for sure. But the nature of that disruption is not clear. It's not clear, for example, that Lavos wanted to set up a chain of events to cause a dimensional split in which he perished in one world but survived in another. It could simply mean that he wanted to introduce Chronopolis into the past as a "wild card" of sorts, disrupting the actions that Crono and co. took.

But likely the entire series of events from the Counter-Time experiment to the Time Crash to the pulling in of Dinopolis to the creation of the El Nido islands and eventually to the dimensional split itself was all part of Belthesar's plan.

Here's what I mean by that: The area of the Sea of Eden originally contained the Frozen Flame, and Chronopolis was built at this point. Belthesar knew that the Counter-time experiment would result in the Time Crash, which led to the creation of the El Nido Archepelago. He also knew the nature of FATE since he was behind Project Kid and designed the Arbiter system as well. So, the El Nido Islands are created and eventually some young hapless soul becomes the new Arbiter of the Frozen Flame but he dies, locking FATE out of the system. By sending Kid back in time, saving Serge, and splitting the dimensions, Belthesar now has created a situation in which the Arbiter exists in one world but not the other.

If dimensional travel is a prerequisite to accessing the DBT, then this means that not only is the Arbiter the only one that can access the Frozen Flame but he is also the only one that can access the DBT and thus the only one that can defeat the Time Devourer for good. If this is so, then Belthesar's plan makes perfect sense.

[BROJ]

Updated my previous post.

[Eske]

So Lavos pulls Schala's essence to the DBT via the Frozen Flame?  Alright, then that still works - she was drawn to a being that lives in the DBT - so she is an exception to the rule.

Another example:  Let's say that without the telepod, gate key, or some anomaly, one cannot time travel.  At least one of those elements is necessary to perform time travel.

Compare to entering the DBT voluntarily:  you can't do it without first having traversed dimensions.

Now back to the time traveling:  Even though I cannot time travel because I do not have those devices, someone else from the future can come back in time and take me to another time period because he does have a gate key.

Back to DBT:   A being that already resides within the DBT can, if the means to do so exist (FF), pull you into the DBT.

[chrono eric]

That said, I would say that the bucket containing a time egg is not as circumstantial as one would think. It does display the abilities of a time egg, and unless it contains Schala's Pendent, Occam's Razor applies.

Occam's Razor doesn't mean that the simplest answer is usually the correct one, it means that the simplest answer that fits with all known evidence is usually the correct one. In the case of the Time Egg inside the Bucket at the End of Time, there is no evidence whatsoever that there is any Time Egg inside of it or that it is any more special than a normal Gate (to 1999 AD). The addition of the gate to the DBT may be as simple as that the DBT can only be accessed from 1999 AD.

There are plenty of equally valid alternative explanations for the Bucket gates. For example, we were speculating in another thread that Gates to the DBT appear whenever a massive change to the timeline occurs in the exact point in space where that change occurred. In Chrono Cross, the Gate is on Opassa Beach - the site of a massive change to the timeline. It would make sense that the Gate to the DBT would be in 1999 AD if this is so.