Author Topic: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!  (Read 1971 times)

Eske

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Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« on: December 22, 2008, 01:19:42 pm »
When replying in another thread I was reinformed that the Compendium holds that Lavos was killed in 12,000BC because going through the Black Omen was the most "canon" path. 

But, how do we even know the Omen is from 12,000BC initially?  If you watch the event in the game, there is no water splashing or any kind of animation like that.  There is lightning and we see the Omen slowly being phased in. 

Looking at youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oll8dMfGBQk&feature=related ,   we see that if you have Lucca in your party, she says:

Quote from: Lucca
We're getting some interference from an enormous gate!
It can't be!   Lavos!!??

So, the Omen was either brought from the under the sea via some giant spatial portal (like Dalton) or it came from a different time period.   I can argue for both:

Spatial portal:

1) It never appears before 12,000BC but appears onwards.
2) Zeal displays that it has this technology.

Time gate:

1) It would probably have been destroyed in 1999AD (if it had risen in 12000BC), so why is it there in 2300AD?
We see that Lavos can easily destroy it - nor does he have any use for it. No reason to spare it.

2) The creatures inside, no matter what time period you enter it from, are mostly mutant like creatures like the ones we see from the future. 

3)  In 2300AD it hovers right over Death Peak - where Lavos arose to begin with.  Since continental drift in CT is ridiculously fast and weird, its strange that in 2300AD the Omen was on the right spot to absorb his power, but it would not have been in 1999AD or previous eras.

Yea, a little biased, but that's life  :D

Any thoughts?

placidchap

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 01:39:12 pm »
Well I am one to believe that Lavos was not defeated in 12000bc...but I don't quite follow your points for the Spatial Portal.  What technology does Zeal display?  I'd assume that it doesn't appear before 12000BC because it was built on or after 12000BC, and by it I mean the Ocean Palace.

As for the other points, Lavos may not be out to destroy everything .  Lavos may very well just burst through with a huge blast of energy, like a chestburster of sorts, killing its host.  I don't think Lavos comes to absorb the DNA for millions of years with the final intention of destroying its host...its just happens to be a violent detachment...
This is an assumption but the creatures inside could be a gameplay issue as those monsters were some of the tougher ones at that point, IIRC...they didn't have space to make doubles of existing monsters with higher stats or new monsters for that matter...so it would make sense for the designers to put tougher baddies in, rather than some blue imps or rubbles etc...
I don't understand your last point there...

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 01:45:39 pm »
Another thing could be why it isn't seen in 1,999 after it rose. It can easily be hit by those rising boulders when Lavos rises itself.

killercactus

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 02:09:24 pm »
You can see my response in the other thread about it having connections to every era, sort of like those that Chronopolis has.  Also, I thought that somewhere in CT, the Black Omen is actually referred to as the Ocean Palace that has risen?  Also, if it wasn't from 12000 BC, how could Queen Zeal come to be there?

I think it's from 12000 BC, and that you're transported to 12000 BC no matter which era you enter it from.

V_Translanka

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 02:35:19 pm »
At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.

The technology Zeal is shown to have is teleportation via the Skyways...Perhaps it's interesting to note that the teleporter you take down to the Ocean Palace from the Zeal throne room looks like a Gate...

Eske

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 03:17:23 pm »
Well I am one to believe that Lavos was not defeated in 12000bc...but I don't quite follow your points for the Spatial Portal.  What technology does Zeal display?  I'd assume that it doesn't appear before 12000BC because it was built on or after 12000BC, and by it I mean the Ocean Palace.

As for the other points, Lavos may not be out to destroy everything .  Lavos may very well just burst through with a huge blast of energy, like a chestburster of sorts, killing its host.  I don't think Lavos comes to absorb the DNA for millions of years with the final intention of destroying its host...its just happens to be a violent detachment...
This is an assumption but the creatures inside could be a gameplay issue as those monsters were some of the tougher ones at that point, IIRC...they didn't have space to make doubles of existing monsters with higher stats or new monsters for that matter...so it would make sense for the designers to put tougher baddies in, rather than some blue imps or rubbles etc...
I don't understand your last point there...

The technology was teleportation.  Like Dalton and the creatures inside the Black Omen.   As for Lavos rising:  I've always thought of it as the parent's way of destroying any threats to its spawn.  He is done with his host - and he has to make sure the host's inhabitants cant threaten the spawn.
Yes the monsters could be just gameplay, you're right lol.  I was just pointing it out.
As for my last point:  The ocean palace tried to stay close to Lavos to be in touch with its power - it would make sense for the Black Omen to do the same.  In 2300AD, the Black Omen hovers over Death Peak, where Lavos "reigns" aka probably where it rose and where its spawn are growing.   The world map changes between time periods, but the Black Omen is always in the same spot (use Epoch).  So its strange that in 2300AD, the Omen is close to Lavos - but in other periods it would be further away.

You can see my response in the other thread about it having connections to every era, sort of like those that Chronopolis has.  Also, I thought that somewhere in CT, the Black Omen is actually referred to as the Ocean Palace that has risen?  Also, if it wasn't from 12000 BC, how could Queen Zeal come to be there?

I think it's from 12000 BC, and that you're transported to 12000 BC no matter which era you enter it from.

The last time we see Queen Zeal, shes with Lavos, not in the Ocean Palace.  Also, if you destroy the Black Omen in 1000AD or 600AD, Lavos will destroy the Omen but you can still go through it again.  So it can't directly transport you to 12000BC, because in this example, the 12000BC version remains intact.

chrono eric

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 03:18:53 pm »
I seem to recall that in the animation, first you see the "modified" Ocean Palace light up below the sea in 12,000 B.C., and then you see it phase into existence above the sea. I always figured the Black Omen was a modified Ocean Palace via Lavos' awesome power, and that it used a massive spatial gate to appear above the sea. I think that makes the most sense.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 03:22:41 pm »
At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.

I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?

chrono eric

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 03:24:48 pm »
At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.

I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?

Because blowing shit up is cool?

I always wondered why that Epoch animation of blasting through the shell looks like they are flying through the freaking grand canyon, while the actual animation of Lavos' size isn't that big.

placidchap

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 03:28:33 pm »
At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.

I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?

i think you are able to back out before the shell battle, after Zeal...could be wrong though

Captain B

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 03:33:33 pm »
 As I recall, that same spot is crucial to lavos in every period.  In Prehistory, it was the tyrano lair. Antiquity gets a little weird. There's a cave at that spot, but Lavos shows up in the ocean to the far east, but this new spot also happens to be where the Black omen appears (this is the exception.). Warp from Tyrano lair to the middle ages. You won't come out over Giant's Claw - You'll come out over Magus's Castle. (AHA!!!   So that's why he built it there). Now let's take it to the present. Melchior's hut, nothing particularly interesting about it...      ...until you look at the 1999 map in Chrono Trigger DS. This "West medina" spot right here is where Lavos is coming out of the ground in that "day of Lavos clip" we all see.

   2300 AD. Let's go from say Magus's Castle to 2300 AD. You should come out around Death Peak, and lo and behold, Black Omen is right there.

  So why doesn't the epoch take you to Magus's castle before it has wings? Well that wouldn't be very convenient, don't you think? But it does take you pretty close, with that peninsula.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 03:35:14 pm »
Maybe the distance between Magus's Castle and the peninsula is the same as in Death Peak and Keeper's Dome?

Eske

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2008, 03:39:04 pm »
I seem to recall that in the animation, first you see the "modified" Ocean Palace light up below the sea in 12,000 B.C., and then you see it phase into existence above the sea. I always figured the Black Omen was a modified Ocean Palace via Lavos' awesome power, and that it used a massive spatial gate to appear above the sea. I think that makes the most sense.

You don't see the Ocean Palace light up in that cutscene - its a cutscene way before it when the Zeal continent is still intact.


chrono eric

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2008, 03:42:54 pm »
Ah that's right it's just some sort of lightning bolt or something. I could have sworn I remember seeing a sillouette of the Omen below the sea at least though...maybe I'm mistaken.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2008, 03:46:46 pm »
It's actually the silluoette of the Omen.