Author Topic: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!  (Read 1972 times)

chrono eric

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2008, 06:12:12 pm »
Yes, but this situation involves sending individuals into the future and so it is different from your original scenario of sending the Omen into the past.

Note that in the game (because you represent the most recent versions of the time travellers) you never see a future "you" or any future "event" coming from the future into the past (unless I'm forgetting something).

Look at it from the perspective of a person on the timeline. At Time X exists person A. Crono and co. enter the timeline at Time X, sending the previous future in which they didn't exist there to the DBT. In this new future, the Black Omen is created at Time X + 3000 (for sake of argument) and then travels back in time to Time X+10. Does Person A see the Black Omen appear at Time X+10?

He does not, because the 5D change to the timeline doesn't occur until it occurs. Meaning that first the Black Omen must be created in the future before it can travel to the past, making a 5D move and sending that future to the DBT.

ie: There are two futures. One in which the Black Omen is created in the future and travels to the past but doesn't exist at all points before that. This future is sent to the DBT when the Black Omen travels to the past. The new future has the Black Omen in all time periods after Time X+10. Since Marle and co. are the most recent versions of the time travellers, they couldn't see the Black Omen the "first" time around if it came from the future.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 06:14:39 pm by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2008, 06:40:55 pm »
That makes sense.  So, assuming that the original Ocean Palace incident happens on Time's "first run through", lets add something.

On the first run through, time travel to the future can occur without "pushing" up Time Error to a higher value.

So if everything happens in Time Error 0, lets add an event and say it was also apart of Time Error 0.

During the Ocean Palace incident Gaspar, Belthasar, Melchior, Janus, and Bill (a palace worker) are all sucked into time gates.
Lavos first targets Bill, and then the others in the order that we see in the game.

Bill is sent to 1000AD.

So does Bill see Melchior appear from the same gate moments later? or is there a timeline where Bill lives out his life never seeing Melchior?

If its all at Time Error 0, Bill should see Melchior.  If not, things are different.

For my example in an earlier post, I'm hoping that Bill will see Melchior.


A similar question would be:  If Magus was immortal, would he see Melchior appear from the gate 400 years later?

If so it means that you can see other entities time travel as long as its within the same Time Error....

EDIT:  added the following...

Okay, so I think I'm confused about something.   
Say we have two entities,   A and B

A - at Time X, Time Error Y,    travels 10 years into the future.
A - at Time X+10, Time Error Y+1,  will appear, of course.

B - at Time X+1000, Time Error Y+1,   travels 989 years into the past.
B - at Time X+11, Time Error Y+2,   will appear there.

When A first travels to the future, he will not see B a year later in this time cycle.  Once time cycles again into the next Unit of Time Error  (2),  A will see B one year later.   Also, for B at TE = Y+1,   A will have always appeared at X+10.

So by conventional thinking, the above model shows that my idea of the Black Omen being from the future does not make sense.
If its from the future, there must be an intermediate timeline, as chrono eric suggested, before the Omen would be visible to Crono in 12000BC.

But let's try this:


Crono - at Time 2300AD, Time Error N+100,  is now in the future to get the new Epoch.  Some years later on this timeline...
Black Omen - at Time 23XXAD, Time Error N +100,  vanishes, bound for the past.   But before that....
Crono - at Time 2300AD, Time Error N+100, vanishes, bound for  Antiquity via Epoch.  (12000BC)    Resulting in.....
Crono - at Time 12000BC, Time Error N+101, appears in Antiquity.
Black Omen - at Time 12000BC+ X amount of time, Time Error N+101, appears in front of Crono and Co.

When Crono defeats Lavos and creates a new future, the fact that he travelled in the old future to the past is preserved through TTI, even if all of that information has now been replaced.   A future Omen would work the same way.  Even if Crono time travelling first would "push" Time Error, the entire timeline will play out and come full circle for Crono's arrival - preserving any time travelling done by anyone (or thing) after him.

If something leaves the timeline at the same point on Time Error as you, and then reappears on the same Time Error point you reappear on, but AFTER you on the timeline, you can see their entrance.

If you think about it... look at what happens when Marle goes into 600AD at the beginning of the game:

From the 600AD onward, the timeline should be discarded and there should be a new timeline where Marle is never born in 1000AD.

But that isn't what happens -- the old 1000AD and onward still plays out.   That means we are still in the same Time Error.  Even crazier is that Crono time travels from there!   That means, from Marle's perspective, Crono eventually comes for her.  There is no Marle who lives out her life in 600AD to old age, or even a 600AD where the Queen is never saved.

Now, the game conveniently gives the opposite perspective.   While the player is in 600AD, Lucca travels into the past, changing the timeline yet again, but still there is no Crono who lives out to old age or one that rescues the Queen on his own.    All 3 of them travel from the same point on Time Error, and end up on the same point because each one travelled/arrived after the other and the timeline continued to run its full course before resetting.

In conclusion, it is possible for the Black Omen to have travelled from a very distant future to the past, appearing in Antiquity X amount of time after Crono and Co.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 09:00:51 pm by Eske »

chrono eric

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2008, 01:01:21 am »
Ah yes you are correct with the Marle situation. I always assumed there would have been an intermediate timeline there, but your analysis is right.

You're also right about the Black Omen situation, even though it's likely that the Omen was just summoned from a "dream space" anyways. But it would still work just fine time mechanically speaking.

Eske

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2008, 01:06:36 am »
Ah yes you are correct with the Marle situation. I always assumed there would have been an intermediate timeline there, but your analysis is right.

You're also right about the Black Omen situation, even though it's likely that the Omen was just summoned from a "dream space" anyways. But it would still work just fine time mechanically speaking.

I don't really think the Omen came from the future anymore, I agree with your idea.  But I just wanted to show it was possible.  Its all leading to something...
I'm thinking about something that would challenge Time Error,  and I think I solved the Marle Paradox...... lol  8)

chrono eric

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Re: Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2008, 03:57:55 am »
No I know that, I was actually agreeing with a hypothetical example that it would be possible for them to see the Omen on the "first" run through the timeline.

Man, it seems like this Time, Space, and Dimensions forum has become the most productive since me and you started discussing things Eske  :D.

As for the Marle Paradox, you are right that it is a unique case. I'm not sure about it yet. But since we proved in the other thread that TB can certainly work in an "abnormal" fashion, it would be interesting to see what else we could apply this to. However, I suspect that in a normal timeline that the instances of TB acting like it does in the "fused" timeline are rare if they exist at all.