Author Topic: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?  (Read 4095 times)

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2008, 01:48:14 am »
I haven't played the game in awhile so I don't know where Belthasar appears.  But if its only in Another World, it supports chrono eric's theory:  No TTI events after 1010AD were preserved in Home World/Ideal Timeline.    If Belthasar appears in Home World, then we have more issues.

Belthesar only appears in Another World, and only three times - first when you meet him in Viper Manor and then later on in the "illusion" manor in Terra Tower, and then right after that atop Terra Tower. However I don't necessary think it supports my theory, as any number of things could have happened to Home World's Belthesar.

Now, moving on:

Clearly there are some problems with the concept of TTI/TB when working with creating new dimensions, we just have to work out the reasoning behind it. It's clear now that my example was flawed, but the fact remains that one would have to explain why the TTI events would be present in a new dimension. But first let's address Eske's theory as it's less troublesome.

I'm going to try to simplify it even more so that it's easier to work with. The reason why I'm doing this is because I'm not so sure the conservation of energy rationale even applies to this in the first case. So let me greatly simplify the problem with the following hypothetical example of creating two dimensions from one and then unifying them again. In my example is a hypothetical universe composed of only three parts that exist in time.

There is one dimension, composed of a timeline that contains only three parts (for simplicity). Call them Part A, Part B, and Part C. It exists at Time Error 0.

At Time Error 1 the dimension (dimension K) is split at a point SP (Split Point). Before the split point the dimensions share the same timeline and after the split point the timelines diverge into two dimensions - X and Y. Dimension X is really just a continuation of K, and Part's Ax, Bx, and Cx = Parts A, B, and C but have been renamed for simplicity later on. Everything is duplicated after the split point, such that you have the following case:

                                                                                       -----> Dimension X (continuation of dimension K): Part Ax, Bx, Cx
At Time Error 1: Dimension K,  Parts A, B, C -------> SP ---->
                                                                                       -----> Dimension Y: Part Ay, By, Cy



In this example, matter and energy have not been conserved at all. Everything has been duplicated. This indicates that in the Chronoverse, the problem of conservation of energy and matter isn't really that important - only when dealing with time travel in a single dimension. Each dimension is like a self-contained universe, and matter-energy conservation is important within it but not between it. So, the major reason why DB and DTI exists is not because of conservation of mass/energy but solely to prevent paradoxes.

Now, at Time Error 2 the dimensions are reunified at the reunification point (RP), which for comparison's sake (to Chrono Cross) necessarily equals the split point (SP). So RP=SP in time and you have this situation. Notice that the two dimensions only merge after the RP and before then can still technically be viewed as belonging to Dimension K.


At Time Error 2:  Dimension K,  Parts A, B, C --------> RP ------> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Cxy


Notice that in this case energy and matter have not been conserved either. The multiverse is back to the original amount of matter and energy it had, but it is still half as much as what existed at Time Error 1. The only thing that is different is that after the point RP the composite parts of the universe undergo a transition. They literally become different.

So, this clearly shows that matter/energy composition is not important when you are talking about multiple dimensions and probably not even for dimensional travel. It's only important for time travel within the dimensions. So I'm not so sure it's that important for Eske's example, but Eske may still be 100% correct.

This should help make both mine and Eske's theories easier to interpret. Let's do Eske's first and I'll do mine in a later post. Both theories attempt to understand what happens to TTI in the case of a dimensional reunification around the RP:

Eske's theory (schematic represenation, simplified to have the same format as above):

                                                                                              Dimension X:  Part Ax, Bx, Part C emerges at time x (only in this timeline)
Dimension K,  A + B, Part C time travels to the future  ---> SP ---->
                                                                                              Dimension Y: Part Ay, By (Cy is missing)

Here you have an example where Part C time travels to after the SP. Since dimension X is a continuation of Dimension K, Part C emerges there. Since everything was doubled after the SP, Part Cy is missing from dimension Y. You can see that matter/energy is conserved in Dimension K/X (the continuation of K), but not in Dimension Y as it has already been deemed unnecessary.

Now for the reunification:

Dimension K,  Parts A + B, Part C time travels to the future ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Part C emerges due to TTI

Now, since the RP = SP in  this example (and in Chrono Cross), the dimensions are reunified at the original point of the split and the Parts of the two dimensions that exist at that point become merged. Part C was not present in either dimension X or dimension Y at the SP so it does not merge. In the future dimension XY, part C emerges due to TTI.

In this example, dimension XY is not the same dimension as dimension K (this is what is implied in Cross). So the dimension actually undergoes a dimensional shift in identity per se at the Reunification Point. But this is a unique case in which dimension K and dimension XY appear to occupy a continuity on the same timeline. I think it's likely then that TTI and TB would be preserved in certain cases in accordance with the conservation of matter/energy.

So in this case, I don't think Part C will be shafted to the DBT, I think it will still emerge due to TTI after the RP. Thoughts, Eske?

PS: Let's try to keep this same format unless you can think of a better one. It seems to make things a lot easier, at least to me anyhow.

EDIT: I'll make another post illustrating my example of TTI/TB and DTI/DB not being preserved after the split using this format. I can already tell it will be a lot easier to figure things out this way.

***What is very important about this example is that it clearly shows two important things about the story of Cross: 1) Home World's future is destroyed because Crono and co.'s time travel event is not preserved in that timeline by TTI and 2) When the dimensions are re-unified Crono and co.'s time travel event is reinstated, thus saving the future again! It's perfect. The only minor problem with it is that Lavos' time travel event would not be preserved in Home World either, but if the pocket dimension theory falls apart (seems like it's going to), Lavos could be viewed as existing physically within the planet's core, in which case he would be duplicated at the split point and still emerge in Home World's future.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 02:41:29 am by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2008, 01:36:56 pm »
Cool.

Alright if Conservation doesn't reeeeallyy matter, then yes, Part C's appearance would have TTI. 

And yes, PD just doesn't work - it seems like its just there to explain a few gameplay quirks that aren't really an issue to begin with.

But, while TTI is preserved, I still think Conservation would be preserved.  That is the point of TB.  TB doesn't prevent a paradox (maybe it can but you cant have a paradox in the Chronoverse anyway), it prevents your double approaching Time X from meeting you in the newly arrived Time X-400. 

In CC, even though people traverse dimensions, Conservation still works, just in a more overall system. (like how Conservation works across time periods to reconcile Crono adding himself to 600AD - he is "missing" in 1000AD.)   When someone "adds" themself to another dimension they "subtract" themself from this dimension.

In the above example, Part C appears to subtract himself from both Dx and Dy, but that is not the case - look at what happens in Home World/Another World with Crono:  Crono never appears in HW's future.  If he appeared in both, it would be creating a new Crono, adding new information.  lets continue...

Now you said above that creating a copy of a dimension is like adding matter, so it doesn't preserve Conservation.  Yet, Kato has hinted through the games (especially now with CTDS with Eclipse Magus's quote) that:

"There are as many worlds as there are possibilities."

Its a Multiverse.     So here we see that something new can created with each possibility.

However , in each universe (or between each universe) Conservation should still be kept (as in the Crono HW example)

If we were to break down TB into really simple numbers it would be like this:

At Time Error 0   Time X-Y (+0),  Time X (+0)     No time travelling
At Time Error 1   Time X-Y (+1),  Time X (-1 )     Unit travels into the past

Unit A travels to Time X-Y.  Balance is preserved.  As his counterpart, Unit B, approaches Time X   Unit B will cease to exist.  This is because he would not bring the value to -2 because he is supposed to disappear at Time X and appear at Time X-Y.  But Unit A is STILL at Time X-Y, so sending both there would create:

At Time Error N   Time X-Y (+2),  Time X (-1)   No Time Bastard.        <---- Wrong

So anything that would make the universal balance a positive number will be banished to the DBT.

Now lets apply it to dimensional RU:

                                                                                                           
                                                                                                             Dimension X:  Part Ax, Bx, Part C emerges at time x (here)
At Time Error N: Dimension K, Parts A+B, C time travels to future -> Sp ->
                                                                                                             Dimension Y: Part Ay, By (Cy is missing)

So we have:   DX: (-1), DY: (0)    There is no Cy, there never was.

Now the balanced is restored in the future for Dx at Time Error N,  but if the RU happens at Time Error N+1, the balance is then restored in a different fashion:

Dimension K,  Parts A + B, Part C time travels to the future ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Part C emerges due to TTI

^^ What you have now is different from the earlier example where Person X time travels after the split.  So it works out a different way.

When the dimensions come together they reconcile Conservation by taking some unknown value from components X and Y. 
It must do this because in the example:  Person X lost an arm in Dimension 1, but lost nothing in Dimension 2, in Dimension 1+2, is there an arm?      So assume it just takes the traits of whatever is considered "ideal", who cares. 
The rest of the unnecessary information is discarded (DBT style).

In Dimension XY, the RU process took  0% of Cx, and 0% of Cy.    So there was a hole there:  C is up for grabs.
   
The (-1) in Dx and the (0) in Dy come together to form a single (-1) for Dxy

So when C emerges in the new timeline, he will become the new Cxy.

BUT if we go to the example in your earlier post where  X time travelled AFTER the split and Y remained stationary, there is a different result.

At the RU point, there will be no hole.   the dimensions will reconcile   Dx (-1), Dy (0)  by accepting all of component Y.

That means that Y's traits are 100% apart of XY and that   X's traits are "discarded"

X is not yet here to discard, but when he arrives at Time X+N..... bam! DBT because he is now extra information.

TTI preserves the event of the gate opening with X inside, it does not preserve X himself.


Think of the Melchior example.....  He already exists in 1000AD so when the 12000BC one enters the gate, he will be TB'ed.  There is NO place for this new information, its slot is already taken up.

This is like being TB'ed, but at arrival instead of upon entry.

Person X was outside of 4D space when the dimensions reformed - its his problem now  :D





chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2008, 04:46:13 pm »
Ah yes assigning numerical values to things makes things even easier than my example! Great job, Eske.

You actually posted in a numerical fashion exactly what I was going to post about time travel after the split. I concluded the exact same thing that you did (it's so much easier to see with the format I made). TTI would not be preserved after the split because it would create extra information. TB would be preserved in a strange sense in that people that emerge due to TTI as extra information will be TB'd away to the DBT. TB in the traditional sense would also not be conserved because it will cause a subtraction of matter and energy that is not balanced since TTI is not conserved.

So it basically confirms my original assumption that TTI and TB would not be conserved after the split, at least not in the traditional sense that we are so used to thinking of. The numerical value system helps explain things a lot and make them easier to work with.

DTI and DB is an easy case after the split. It will not be conserved because a person can't disappear and reappear in the same place at the same time. It creates no problems here, only TTI and TB does.

When I get back I'm going to think of some more examples that might further explain the ending of Cross.

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2008, 05:07:44 pm »
Ah yes assigning numerical values to things makes things even easier than my example! Great job, Eske.

You actually posted in a numerical fashion exactly what I was going to post about time travel after the split. I concluded the exact same thing that you did (it's so much easier to see with the format I made). TTI would not be preserved after the split because it would create extra information. TB would be preserved in a strange sense in that people that emerge due to TTI as extra information will be TB'd away to the DBT. TB in the traditional sense would also not be conserved because it will cause a subtraction of matter and energy that is not balanced since TTI is not conserved.

So it basically confirms my original assumption that TTI and TB would not be conserved after the split, at least not in the traditional sense that we are so used to thinking of. The numerical value system helps explain things a lot and make them easier to work with.

DTI and DB is an easy case after the split. It will not be conserved because a person can't disappear and reappear in the same place at the same time. It creates no problems here, only TTI and TB does.

When I get back I'm going to think of some more examples that might further explain the ending of Cross.

Yep  :D  As long as the following are true, I see no problem with your ideas:

Time X = the time when dimensions split
Time Error Y+1 = time error when dimensions split

As long as Person A travels before Time X at Time Error Y  to the future, he will be reinstated, purely as Person A, in the new dimension at Time Error Y+1
If Person A travels after Time X at Time Error Y to the future, he will not be reinstated. Person B will be the only entity to represent the both of them at the time of reunification and Person A will be sent to the DBT upon arrival in the future.

^^ And that's all.  TTI is preserved technically, but no longer creates any issues.  If the above are true, nothing is violated and your theories fit in with TTI/TB    8)

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2008, 05:59:43 pm »
I think that you made a slight error right here though:

If Person A travels after Time X at Time Error Y to the future, he will not be reinstated. Person B will be the only entity to represent the both of them at the time of reunification and Person A will be sent to the DBT upon arrival in the future.

^^ And that's all.  TTI is preserved technically, but no longer creates any issues.  If the above are true, nothing is violated and your theories fit in with TTI/TB    8)


The reunification occurs at the RU which = Time X which = the split point SP. The dimensions are reunified only at that point and then the new future extends from there. At Time X, both Person A and Person B still exist. Person A only exits the timeline after Time X. So, at Time X = RU the dimensions fuse and Person AB is created (50% A/50% B). But at a certain time when Person A originally emerged in the timeline, you would end up with this situation:

Person AB (50% A/50% B) plus Person A exiting due to TTI (100% A) which would create an imbalance. Person A would be TB'd away at that moment, leaving only Person AB.

It's a minor difference to what you originally said, however it has importance for what I'm about to consider.

The Ending of Chrono Cross:

So now we can truly apply these ideas to come up with a very plausible ending scenario for the Ideal Timeline in cross. So let's recap what we've proven in this thread already:

1) DB and DTI exist but they will not be preserved after the RU.

2) TTI and TB will not be preserved after the RU in a traditional sense when a time travel event happens in one dimension but not the other. Individual unusual cases have to be evaluated. Any extratemporal counterparts to the "fused" counterparts in the Ideal Timeline are shafted to the DBT upon re-entering the timeline.

3) TTI and TB will be preserved after the RU if the time travel event spans either side of the RU point.


In light of these three facts, you can see that the Compendium's article "Chrono Cross Resolutions" is deeply, deeply flawed. It makes a huge number of assumptions without attempting to prove anything about the mechanics of time and dimensional travel as we have. There is not even a single hypothetical proof of DBT and DB on this site except for the discussion we have had here.

So let's try to figure out what happens at the end of Cross. Now, as I stated above, the dimensions are reunified at the RU which = the split point SP. They aren't reunified like a "zipper", but rather the original act of splitting them is undone and a new future stretches out from the RU point.

All the hard parts have already been done by us. The following logic is very simple and I don't think it requires a diagram of any kind:

At the SP point, almost every single character of Cross has both an A and a B version. None of them have undergone their dimensional adventure yet. So at the RU point, almost every single character of Cross will fuse to create an AB version in the Ideal Timeline. This is fine, except for the two characters at the DBT and Serge.

Serge's case: At the RU point Serge A is dead and Serge B is alive. Serge AB will be composed of (0% A/100% B). The Serge B at the DBT is 100% B. If Serge B attempts to return from the DBT at any time on the timeline you would have an imbalance of 200% Serge B. Serge B that we all know and love from the story would therefore be wiped from existence. But this isn't so bad as we find out in a bit!

Companion's case: The companions with Serge at the DBT face a similar dilemma. Their counterparts after the RU point are Companion AB (50% A/50% B) and they are either Companion A or B 100%. They would likewise be wiped from existence upon trying to return from the DBT.

What is awesome about the predictions made by our theory is that this is completely in line with what Schala tells them at the end of the story.

All of the characters would forget their adventure. For Serge and co. it is as if it never existed. But wait! There's hope still. This is ghost Crono's line from Cross in Terra Tower when talking about how the Chrono Cross actually works:

Quote
   

   Crono:

   It has the power to cross
   space and time and unify
   people's thoughts and feelings...

   It has the power to
   transfer memories...


So, Serge remembers his adventure at the end of the story - we know this. But why? The Compendium states that the version of Serge on Opassa Beach is TB'd out (it's actually DB'd but no biggie) - however, we have proven that this cannot be the case. So how can the new Serge AB remember the adventure of Serge B? I propose that it was a function of the Chrono Cross. It transferred Serge B's memories to Serge AB at the original time of the dimensional crossing. Hell, it may have done that with Kid and all of his other companions as well.

This is the same conclusion that I reached in the other thread I made but now we have the hard evidence to back it up. Our theory also supports the text and evidence from Chrono Cross 100%. The only thing not accounted for is Serge's memories, which can easily be explained by the function of the Cross (text provided in-game) rather than complicated TB/TTI situations (not provided in-game) :D

This also leads directly to the creation of an "Ideal Timeline", which I will address in the next post after Eske has a chance to point out any areas that I went wrong at so they can be addressed.

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2008, 06:27:57 pm »
Ah yes, you're right, I was assuming that the Sp and Ru points were different lol.  But it does work out the same way   :D

Well, everything checks out as far as I can see, I guess its time to present it to the Compendium - I'll let you handle that  8)

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #51 on: December 24, 2008, 04:43:52 am »
Well, everything checks out as far as I can see, I guess its time to present it to the Compendium - I'll let you handle that  8)

LoL, I don't even know how to go about that. Or even how I will organize all this together. You helped tremendously so I say it's your responsibility too, dammit  :D.

Now for the grand finale of our discussion, a much more concise sequence of events for the "Ideal Timeline" in Cross than that given by the Chrono Cross Resolutions article:

To reiterate the three points we have proven already-

1) DB and DTI exist but they will not be preserved after the RU.

2) TTI and TB will not be preserved after the RU in a traditional sense when a time travel event happens in one dimension but not the other. Individual unusual cases have to be evaluated. Any extratemporal counterparts to the "fused" counterparts in the Ideal Timeline are shafted to the DBT upon re-entering the timeline.

3) TTI and TB will be preserved after the RU if the time travel event spans either side of the RU point.


Character fates:

Serge - Serge XY is created at the RU point. Serge from the DBT does not re-emerge in the timeline as per our theory. He is eliminated. Serge XY does not disappear due to TB as per our theory. He regains his memories because of the Chrono Cross.

Belthesar - Our theory predicts that Belthesar will emerge in 2300 AD and see a bright and shiny future as usual. He would not find that Schala is bound to the Time Devourer and he would not start the sequence of events to initiate Project Kid (even though everything associated with Project Kid is still preserved under TTI in the past). However, the Belthesar from during the game could possibly have escaped to the End of Time to watch the events unfold and still exists as well.

Robo - Robo would never partake in Project Kid and would presumably live out his life with Atropos in 2300 AD.

Misc. characters - According to our theory, everyone would become fused with their counterparts at the RU point and would not remember the adventure as Schala predicted. However, it's possible that the Chrono Cross could transfer their memories to at some point. It would seem a shame that they would miss out on the personal development they underwent during their quest.

Dragon Gods - The Dragon Gods are a mysterious case. It's possible that the Dragon Gods would all exist within the El Nido archepelago until 1010 A.D. FATE's power over them is transferred across the boundary of the Sea of Eden, and this is normally protected by TTI. But after 1010 A.D. TTI events that happened in one world but not the other are not preserved. So presumably the Dragon Gods would be free to become the fused Dragon God once more after the RU point and Terra Tower would reawaken. This is what is most predicted by our theory. What significance this has for the fate of the El Nido islands is unknown.

Harle - Harle was created in 1004 A.D. before the RU point. At the RU point she becomes Harle XY. (50% Harle X/50% Harle Y). Harle Y in Home World dies in the Dead Sea in the game, but this does not happen in the Ideal Timeline. Since all TTI/TB events after the split are not conserved, our theory predicts that Harle XY continues on living her life freely. An ideal situation, if you will.

Kid - Kid is an interesting case and requires further analysis. When Kid travelled back in time to save Serge it was a time travel event that spanned the RU point but it also assisted in creating the dimensional split. Let's see what happens to Kid in the ideal timeline:

                                                                                                                            Dimension X:  Kid (X) time travels to the past to save Serge
Dimension K,  Kid (X) Emerges at Time X, young Kid (X) exists in the past  ---> SP ---->
                                                                                                                            Dimension Y: Kid (Y) does not time travel

To slightly modify Eske's numerical example. Dimension K/X has a value of +1, -1 = 0. Dimension Y has a value of 0. All matter is conserved.

After reunification:

Kid XY exists after the RU point but does not disappear due to TB as per our theory. That means that Kid X appears before the RU point, but she is not extra information until the RU point. This means that at the RU point is when she would be TB'd away. Depending on the true origin in time of the dimensional split, which Cross is hopelessly ambiguous about, this could mean that Kid does not save Serge from drowning, which is important for the next character - Wazuki/Lynx.

Dimension K,  Kid X appears due to TTI but is sent to the DBT and does not save Serge ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Kid XY does not disappear due to TB as per our theory

Dimension K/XY numerical value - 0. Matter is conserved.

Wazuki/Lynx: So, because Kid does not appear to save Serge from drowning, and because Serge is obviously still alive in the Ideal Timeline, this means that Wazuki/Lynx never attempted to kill Serge by drowning in the first place. This means that either Wazuki never transforms into Lynx, or he does but is not guided by the RoF. The transmissions of the RoF would stop transmitting at around the time of the original split due to TTI not being preserved after the RU point. This leads to the following sequence of events.


Predicted sequence of events for the "Ideal" timeline:


- All story-related events up until the split would be subject to TB/TTI, including Serge and Wazuki re-emerging from the Dead Sea.

- After the RU point in 1010 A.D., the Records of Fate would suddenly become inactive, because their transmissions are not preserved by TTI/TB. Events pertaining to the lives of normal people would presumably proceed similar to Home World.

- After 1010 A.D., Wazuki would presumably not turn into Lynx as a biological terminal for FATE because FATE no longer exists, or he might but would not be controlled by FATE since the RoF transmissions don't exist. He would not attempt to kill Serge. Lucca would not be abducted and the orphanage would not be burned.

- It was Lynx that manipulated the Porrean government and the Acacia Dragoons, not the Records of FATE. Without Lynx around, Porre would not invade El Nido and the Acacia Dragoons would still rule the islands.

- In 1020 A.D., Serge regains the memories of the adventure. The Kid/Schala that is probably on the mainland likely also remembers the adventure, and seeks Serge out in El Nido. This would explain why they would get married in the future, because why would they if she didn't remember as well?


Some said it was impossible, some said the ending was too vague. But there you have it, an interpretation of the ending of Chrono Cross that is 100% in line with our new theories on time and dimensional travel and even more importantly the Ideal Timeline is 100% predicted by our new theories on time and dimensional travel. It is much more concise than the Compendium's analysis. All in all, I think it is a great success!

« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 04:52:16 am by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #52 on: December 24, 2008, 12:06:50 pm »
I feel so productive haha.   This is great, I reread the Compendium analysis just now and I feel that this is a little more airtight.
Most of what we say is based on balancing equations based on the events in the game, which, for me at least, gives off a feel of more credability.
We aren't saying things like "well Person A probably thought this, so he did some things like this to piss off Person B, hence Time Crash!!!"
And that's why I think it survives  the Razor  (you know which one...)    :)       

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #53 on: December 24, 2008, 04:29:33 pm »
Yes, what I find particularly awesome is that the "Ideal Timeline" was always assumed to exist because people want happy endings. But such a thing is never mentioned in the script of Chrono Cross. But our analysis actually predicts an "Ideal" sequence of events from the perspectives of the characters. Indeed even from the perspective of the Entity since the Crono and co. time travel event in 1999 A.D. is reinstated via TTI and the future is saved once more.

So now what is the proper way to formally present our ideas to the Compendium for review?

Also, maybe me and you can tackle the Pocket Dimension thing now (perhaps in the other thread that placidchap posted? here http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4999.0 ) and firmly settle that once and for all. It seems we have a knack for this. Our theories, which are pretty damned good, actually predict that Lavos' pocket dimension does not have true perpendicular time flow like the End of Time does, because our theory predicts that his pocket dimension will be duplicated at the time of the dimensional split. Why? Perhaps we can figure this out.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 04:32:51 pm by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2008, 04:36:44 pm »
I don't know how its presented... I was here in 04 and onward under another username when Leebot and Greylensman were still around  - thats when all these articles started coming up as  I recall.  I was even credited for something with Spekkio (under the username Faulce)  :D  but I don't really know how its done.

I'll visit that thread and see what I can pitch in...

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2008, 04:58:02 pm »
Don't be afraid to draw upon our new theories if it requires it  :D. I'm still not convinced that placidchap is correct, something seems...off to me about the theory. But I admittedly haven't given it the thought it deserves.

EDIT: Actually, I see what is bothering me. His theory doesn't really change anything except that time-flow in Lavos' PD is not perpendicular when it makes contact with the time line, which is actually something I have always assumed and it makes 100% sense. But if Lavos exits the PD in 1999 AD permanently, and you destroy the shell there, it should not dissappear in the PD. The PD is like a self-contained timeline. So this doesn't invalidate the PD theory either...

As for the PD duplicating at the dimensional split in Cross, even that makes sense if the PD is considered to be a physical sphere-like object, the surface of which is discontinuous and connected to all points in time. If the entire universe were destroyed, would the PD be destroyed too? This suggests that it would. If the entire universe is duplicated, would the PD be duplicated too? Yes. It's not truly separate from the timeline in the sense that a separate dimension is, even though time flow can be *somewhat* perpendicular for it.

Here's another strange example:

Time X: Person A enters pocket dimension -----------------> Time X+2000: Person B enters pocket dimension

But at what time do each of them appear in the PD? 2000 years apart, or at the same time in the PD?

Drawing from our analysis of the Marle paradox in the other thread, if the PD can be viewed as it's own separate timeline that is still a part of the universe, lets try to answer this question:

The PD is perpendicular to the timeline in the sense that if you fight Lavos in the future and damage him, and then fight him in the past and damage him, the previous damage from your first fight is maintained. Even though you are fighting him in your timelines past, it is still the future for the PD.

So it can be viewed as proceeding along Time Error:

Time Error 0: Fight Lavos at Time X and stick a sword in him. Travel back in time to X-1000

Time Error 1: Fight Lavos at Time X-1000. You find that the sword is still there.

From Lavos' perspective time is flowing along the axis of Time Error. But from what we've been talking about in the Marle paradox thread, two time travellers from the same timeline but at different times can end up at the same point in Time Error. So modifying this example:

Time Error 0: Time X: Person A enters PD. Time X+2000: Person B enters PD.

When do they arrive?

Time Error 1: Both Person A and Person B arrive at the same moment in the PD!

Every moment that passes for them in the PD is like progressing through Time Error. Inside the Pocket Dimension, it is like they are continually time travelling all of the time. This is different from the normal concept of perpendicular time flow in the PD, and I believe it may answer a lot of questions.

Thoughts Eske? Or perhaps we should move this discussion to the other thread?

Edit #2: Is it me, or does looking at time in the PD this way predict that Eclipse Magus is actually from the same timeline as that of Crono and co., and not from a different dimension?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 05:19:50 pm by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2008, 06:23:30 pm »
Okay lets get this PD thing straightened out.  First of all lets list all the access points to Lavos and which Lavos they lead to:

1. New Game+ gate on right pod of telepod   Unknown version of Lavos
2. Ocean Palace.         12000BC Lavos
3. Black Omen.          Unknown
4. Bucket at EoT.   Leads to 1999AD Lavos
5. Epoch.    1999AD Lavos


If the shell is destroyed in 1999 and you fight Lavos post-Black Omen, the shell is still destroyed
But he is always intact during the Ocean Palace incident.
Of course, its a gameplay cutscene - but c'mon - its not the ATB meter or numbers over monsters' heads - we can take this as serious indication of something.

The Compendium holds that fighting Lavos through the Black Omen in 12000BC is the most canon path.... where does it say this?

If the Omen sends the party to 1999AD - then we really dont need a pocket dimension, do we?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 06:57:01 pm by Eske »

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2008, 06:38:08 pm »
No we don't need one, and I think I have proven this in the other thread. Let's just move the discussion over there for simplicity.

I basically came to the same conclusion as placidchap but using Time Error. There's no way the PD exists in the current timeline. It's impossible. He was right.