Author Topic: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?  (Read 4301 times)

Chocobo_Fan

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If the TD, like Lavos is speculated to, runs on a time axis perpendicular to the normal flow of time (a Time-Error) and its defeat erases it from all timelines, then that means that Lynx would never have existed, and thus Lucca's orphanage would not have been burned and she would have survived, and also the Dimensional Vortices would never have opened, so Dalton would be trapped there, unable to cause the Fall of Guardia.

However, it would also mean that El Nido and Serge would never have existed, yet they clearly do, as we see in the short scene on Opassa Beach...

This kind of stuff makes my head hurt, so I'm not sure if I'm thinking about it wrong or not. :/ Opinions/facts to support/go against this theory?

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2008, 07:56:26 pm »
Wrong, I believe. The Time Devourer doesn't cease to exist in all timelines, just in the new Ideal Timeline created at the end of Cross. Time in the chronoverse runs in both 4D and 5D directions. In the new timeline that results, the Time Devourer indeed does not exist, but all time travel events that happened in the original timeline would be preserved by TTI, so it's likely that Dalton still appears to destroy Guardia (especially since it happened in 1005 AD, 5 years before the dimensional split).

The Compendium has an extensive article on this - Chrono Cross Resolutions. You should check it out.

I don't think it's entirely accurate regarding what is preserved with TTI, however, and I have my own thoughts about it in this thread http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0.

One thing seems incredibly likely, and that is that events related to time travel before the split in 1010 A.D. are preserved via TTI, including the appearance of Dalton and the Fall of Guardia and the formation and colonization of the El Nido Archepelago (even though Chronopolis no longer exists).

And besides, even without complicated TTI theory, the cutscene with Serge and Leena at the end proves that he still exists and so does El Nido, regardless of defeating the Time Devourer.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2008, 08:10:34 pm »
I actually have read the Chrono Cross Resolutions article, but it didn't help very much... The ending is just left so open-ended...

Ah, TTI. That's an annoying problem. So the Fall still happens... But what about Lucca? Lynx never time traveled to get to her, so without FATE and Chronopolis, Lynx never existed and never killed Lucca...

The TD was created before the dimensional split, though, so I think that things before the split could still be affected... Still, though, Dalton's protected by TTI...

Gah, the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum always makes my head hurt. >.<

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2008, 09:16:33 pm »
Well, I noted in my thread (in agreement with the Comendium's article) that Wazuki (corrupted by FATE) and Serge would still emerge from the Dead Sea protected by TTI before 1010 AD. It's likely that the electrical storm caused by Schala is protected by TTI as well. However, I believe that after 1010 A.D., the Records of Fate would likely spontaneously stop working because events covered by TTI that happened differently in the two dimensions could not be preserved. Otherwise you'd be left with major Time Bastard problems. (for example - if Home Vann time travels in Another World with Serge to save Kid in the orphanage fire, but Another World Vann does not time travel at all, then is the Ideal Vann in the unified timeline Time Bastarded out, or not?)

So if instances of TTI/TB that occurred differently in both timelines are not preserved in the unified timeline after 1010 AD, and if transmissions from FATE through the RoF were somehow necessary to transform Wazuki into Lynx, then it's possible that Wazuki never became Lynx. Even if he did, however, he was certainly guided in his actions by FATE, so without FATE Lucca's orphanage would not be burned down (happened after 1010 AD) and she would probably still be alive.

While the Time Devourer was created before the dimensional split, it was created in the Darkness Beyond Time which probably has some sort of perpendicular or transcendent time flow like the End of Time. It would still be subject to Time Error though, and so you can look at it like this:

At Time Error X - dimensions divided, Time Devourer exists in the DBT but is defeated by Serge unifying the dimensions, thus creating a situation at:

Time Error X+1 - unified timeline, Time Devourer no longer exists in the DBT.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 09:18:34 pm by chrono eric »

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2008, 09:27:02 pm »
Does dimension crossing give you TTI though? In which case, it's possible Dalton doesn't have TTI... But it likely gives you some form of "Dimension Crosser's Immunity"...

Gah, talking about this kind of stuff always gets me confused. >.< I have a feeling that Square didn't look too deeply into time travel mechanics, instead just saying, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we made a game about time travel?"

So, bicker and speculate about TTI this and TB that as we may, I have a feeling the developers didn't create the game with those things in mind, which pretty much makes all of those arguments pointless... x_x

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2008, 09:53:05 pm »
So, bicker and speculate about TTI this and TB that as we may, I have a feeling the developers didn't create the game with those things in mind, which pretty much makes all of those arguments pointless... x_x

They most certainly did not, I'm sure. But, they created a coherent story in which time paradoxes and time duplicates do not exist. So whether they intended to have TTI or TB or not, they (or something very much similar to them) have to be present to account for the lack of paradoxes.

Just for fun, try to create a simple time travel story yourself in which paradoxes and duplicates do not exist (using the canon explanation of sending futures to the DBT every time time travel occurs). You can't do it without TTI or TB or something very, very similar. Somehow past versions of time travellers have to be removed and present versions have to be preserved. Otherwise the entire story would fall apart.

So I think it's safe to say that we can have a good discussion about the ending of Cross with TB and TTI firmly in place. Otherwise we can't have a meaningful discussion at all.

That said, the question of whether or not dimensional travel is covered by TTI is a good one. But remember, Dalton came from 12000 BC and eventually ended up in 1000 (or so) AD. Regardless of whether or not he did dimensional travel as well, his appearance in 1000 AD should still be covered by TTI.

But just for fun let's try to figure out whether or not it would be necessary to cover dimensional travel by something like TB and TTI (DB and DTI perhaps?). I've never done it before so it should be interesting. I'll make a simple thought experiment and see if dimensional travel creates paradoxes. Here we go:

Two dimensions exist which are parallel to each other in time. In Dimension 1 a man called Dimensional Traveler exists in the timeline. In Dimension 2 he was never born. A person called Time Traveller was born in Dimension 2 and may or may not exist in Dimension 1 (doesn't matter).

Dimension 1: Time X: Dimensional Traveller goes to dimension 2 via some dimensional gate.

Dimension 2: Time X: Dimensional Traveller appears in dimension 2. Time Traveller meets Dimensional Traveller, decides he is an asshole, and travels first to Dimension 1 with the intent of going back in time to kill his grandfather so he never exists.

Dimension 1: Time X+1: Time Traveller arrives in dimension 1, goes back  in time to X-100.

Dimension 1: Time X-100: Time Traveller kills Dimensional Travellers grandfather, changing history in Dimension 1 so that Dimensional Traveller never crosses the dimensions to Dimension 2, then travels back to the present in Dimension 1 and goes back to his home dimension of Dimension 2 at Time X+2.

Dimension 2: Time X+2: Time Traveller returns to his home dimension anticipating that Dimensional Traveller wouldn't be there. Does he meet Dimensional Traveller, or not?


Quite a thinker, eh?

EDIT: I have reinstated my conclusion that dimensional travel is covered by "Dimensional Bastard" and "Dimensional Traveller Immunity". It would have to be, as in my example a paradox would occur. One might think that the paradox would be taken care off by the actions of Time Traveller being preserved by TTI alone, but his original dimensional crossing to Dimension 1 would have to be preserved as well.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 10:43:51 pm by chrono eric »

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2008, 10:18:34 pm »
Hah, glad my stupid idea turned into a thought-provoking one. :)

Unfortunately, this will without a doubt start going over my head really soon, so perhaps I should leave this up to you and some of the Gurus of Time...

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2008, 10:30:47 pm »
Unfortunately, this will without a doubt start going over my head really soon

Naw, it's not that complicated. You just have to think of what would create a temporal paradox, and then account for the fact that a paradox couldn't be created by introducing TB and TTI. It actually explains quite a bit about the story and endings of Trigger and Cross. To me, the ultimate triumph of TTI would be the existence of the El Nido archepelago at the end of Cross. The measure of a good theory is to actually make predictions based on the rules of the theory, and TTI predicts that El Nido would still exists even if Chronopolis was erased from the pages of history.

I take back my previous conclusion about Dimensional Travel being preserved. My example doesn't prove it one way or the other. All it demonstrates is that the instance of time travel by the Time Traveller is preserved. Upon returning to his home dimension, it would be perfectly reasonable for him to not meet Dimensional Traveller.

EDIT: Nevermind. I reinstate my conclusion and I think I was right after all. This is complicated and I think I might make a new thread devoted just to the concept of Dimensional Travellers Immunity.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 10:44:37 pm by chrono eric »

utunnels

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2008, 02:11:59 am »
Another question, if Chronopolis never exists in HW, how could El Nido islands' civilization be there?

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 04:19:23 am »
Another question, if Chronopolis never exists in HW, how could El Nido islands' civilization be there?

In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D., and if you were to look at the timeline it would look like a "Y", splitting at 1010 A.D. Evidence for this is that the Dead Sea doesn't appear in Home World until 1010 A.D. (rather than existing there all along), and that Miguel was there for 14 years and remembers the Sea of Eden changing to the Dead Sea.

Now, in the case of the Ideal Timeline, Chronopolis also no longer exists, but because the boundary of the Sea of Eden likely works like a Gate, the passage of the people in Chronopolis through the boundary of the Sea of Eden and the creation of the El Nido Archepelago would be covered by TTI - so the El Nido Islands would still exist.

utunnels

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2008, 04:31:38 am »
Quote
In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D.
Yeah, that's what I used to think. But since the ghosts of the trio said they no longer exist in HW, for some reason they failed to save the world from Lavos(which caused the future destruction), unlike in AW, they did. So it doesn't seem the 2 worlds share same history before 1010...

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2008, 04:51:35 am »
Quote
In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D.
Yeah, that's what I used to think. But since the ghosts of the trio said they no longer exist in HW, for some reason they failed to save the world from Lavos(which caused the future destruction), unlike in AW, they did. So it doesn't seem the 2 worlds share same history before 1010...


Well, Lavos would likely have to be defeated in 1999 AD (despite that the Compendium supports Lavos being defeated in 12000 BC). But if you think about it, Lavos' arrival in 1999 AD would be covered by TTI, so even if they defeat Lavos in the past...he would still appear in 1999 AD.

So, I was always under the impression that in Home World where the ruined future has returned, that this was because of events that happened in the future. I was also under the impression that the three "ghosts" are not literally ghosts of Crono, Marle, and Lucca, but some sort of manifestation of the Entity. Or a cheap plot device. It really doesn't make sense otherwise.

utunnels

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2008, 05:04:27 am »
The Entity...yeah, that makes sense.

Hmm, I remember I read somewhere the world(not sure HW or NA) is not based on the fall of Guardia completely.
But, personally, I think that's just a possibility.

When Crono defeated Lavos and returned to his own era, did El Nido islands already exist(somewhere in the sea)? I've no idea, but I remember in DS version, you can't ride the Epoch anymore...strange.

 :picardno Forget it, I misremembered that...

--------------------

So there's no such change on the map at all.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 05:29:23 am by utunnels »

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2008, 06:02:24 am »
Naw, there would have to be another intermediate timeline anyways when after Crono and co. first return to their time there is no El Nido Archepelago. It is in this timeline that Lucca and Belthesar would plan Project Kid, which would create another timeline in which El Nido exists.

Cross' plot is very complex. I don't think it's explicitly stated in the game that Guardia fell in both timelines (I may be wrong about that though) but the fact that the Masamune exists in both worlds and that Porre is a major military power and that Radius and Viper were somehow involved in "events on the mainland 15 years ago" in both worlds strongly implies it.

utunnels

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2008, 06:15:24 am »
Yeah, so as DBT Magus said, there're countless time lines as there are countless possibilities...

I used to have a feeling that, you never change the future, instead, you only go into anther branch.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 06:17:04 am by utunnels »