Author Topic: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?  (Read 8078 times)

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2008, 08:49:54 am »
Does anyone realize that the whole plot of CT is pretty much pointless, since if Lavos is protected by TTI, no matter what they do, they won't be able to stop him?

This is why I think Square thought about the story itself more than the mechanics of time travel. I'll bet they said "Oh, hey, how about we make a game with time travel? That would be cool, right?" then focused on the story itself, without really paying attention to time travel mechanics...

(Or should I make another thread about that? Hm)

But yeah, this is confusing. >.< Whenever I read stuff in the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum, I struggle to understand maybe the first few posts or so, but then my eyes cross and everything starts going over my head. x_x

Well, the point is, (I think) that Lucca doesn't die, yet Dalton is still protected by DTI, so the Fall of Guardia still happens, and Marle and Crono may or may not still die... So we will still need a third game to resolve this. (If it even talks about the Fall at all, grumble grumble...)

Is that correct? Or did I read something wrong?

(Also, does anyone notice that "Brake" means "to stop"? Perhaps the episode with the Chrono Trigger and reviving Crono is foreshadowing something in Brake. Perhaps someone prevents the Fall by travelling on a Time-Error-Error, by stopping or reversing time... That's what some people think, anyway)

utunnels

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2008, 09:14:48 am »
TTI/TD/whatever are just fan theories...
 Yeah, square might not think them too hard. In CT, Marle just disappears when Leene is in danger, and the end of the game, Lucca states that Robo probably won't be produced in the new future.
Those reveal that they didn't consider multiple time lines, at least before CC or CTDS.
Everything is simple and clear, you change something in the past so the future is changed as well(and all those side quests are all such things...).
 :picardno
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 09:19:19 am by utunnels »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2008, 12:35:24 pm »
Quote
In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D.
Yeah, that's what I used to think. But since the ghosts of the trio said they no longer exist in HW, for some reason they failed to save the world from Lavos(which caused the future destruction), unlike in AW, they did. So it doesn't seem the 2 worlds share same history before 1010...


The do share the same history but... In 1000AD there was only one dimension. So, only one version of Crono and Co. could appear to defeat Lavos in 1999AD.  Another world represents the original timeline in which Schala did not intervene and Serge died.  So, Crono and Co. only appeared through the gate to 1999AD in Another World, leaving Home World for dead.   Even better is that because of this, we know that no version of Crono ever ended up in the bright future - making a small case for Time Bastard, if you think about it.
Does anyone realize that the whole plot of CT is pretty much pointless, since if Lavos is protected by TTI, no matter what they do, they won't be able to stop him?
This is why I think Square thought about the story itself more than the mechanics of time travel. I'll bet they said "Oh, hey, how about we make a game with time travel? That would be cool, right?" then focused on the story itself, without really paying attention to time travel mechanics...

(Or should I make another thread about that? Hm)

But yeah, this is confusing. >.< Whenever I read stuff in the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum, I struggle to understand maybe the first few posts or so, but then my eyes cross and everything starts going over my head. x_x

Well, the point is, (I think) that Lucca doesn't die, yet Dalton is still protected by DTI, so the Fall of Guardia still happens, and Marle and Crono may or may not still die... So we will still need a third game to resolve this. (If it even talks about the Fall at all, grumble grumble...)

Is that correct? Or did I read something wrong?

Lavos's last instance of known time travel is when he permanently breaks PD at 1999AD when he rises.  So, TTI or not, those moments between his arrival and his destructive attack on the world  are when he can be killed to create a bright future.  We indeed see that Crono and Co. arrive on the scene just as he is rising, so everything checks out.

TTI only protects the instance of time travel, not the events that occur immediately afterward.

So, bicker and speculate about TTI this and TB that as we may, I have a feeling the developers didn't create the game with those things in mind, which pretty much makes all of those arguments pointless... x_x

They most certainly did not, I'm sure. But, they created a coherent story in which time paradoxes and time duplicates do not exist. So whether they intended to have TTI or TB or not, they (or something very much similar to them) have to be present to account for the lack of paradoxes.

Just for fun, try to create a simple time travel story yourself in which paradoxes and duplicates do not exist (using the canon explanation of sending futures to the DBT every time time travel occurs). You can't do it without TTI or TB or something very, very similar. Somehow past versions of time travellers have to be removed and present versions have to be preserved. Otherwise the entire story would fall apart.

So I think it's safe to say that we can have a good discussion about the ending of Cross with TB and TTI firmly in place. Otherwise we can't have a meaningful discussion at all.

That said, the question of whether or not dimensional travel is covered by TTI is a good one. But remember, Dalton came from 12000 BC and eventually ended up in 1000 (or so) AD. Regardless of whether or not he did dimensional travel as well, his appearance in 1000 AD should still be covered by TTI.

But just for fun let's try to figure out whether or not it would be necessary to cover dimensional travel by something like TB and TTI (DB and DTI perhaps?). I've never done it before so it should be interesting. I'll make a simple thought experiment and see if dimensional travel creates paradoxes. Here we go:

Two dimensions exist which are parallel to each other in time. In Dimension 1 a man called Dimensional Traveler exists in the timeline. In Dimension 2 he was never born. A person called Time Traveller was born in Dimension 2 and may or may not exist in Dimension 1 (doesn't matter).

Dimension 1: Time X: Dimensional Traveller goes to dimension 2 via some dimensional gate.

Dimension 2: Time X: Dimensional Traveller appears in dimension 2. Time Traveller meets Dimensional Traveller, decides he is an asshole, and travels first to Dimension 1 with the intent of going back in time to kill his grandfather so he never exists.

Dimension 1: Time X+1: Time Traveller arrives in dimension 1, goes back in time to X-100.

Dimension 1: Time X-100: Time Traveller kills Dimensional Travellers grandfather, changing history in Dimension 1 so that Dimensional Traveller never crosses the dimensions to Dimension 2, then travels back to the present in Dimension 1 and goes back to his home dimension of Dimension 2 at Time X+2.

Dimension 2: Time X+2: Time Traveller returns to his home dimension anticipating that Dimensional Traveller wouldn't be there. Does he meet Dimensional Traveller, or not?


Quite a thinker, eh?

EDIT: I have reinstated my conclusion that dimensional travel is covered by "Dimensional Bastard" and "Dimensional Traveller Immunity". It would have to be, as in my example a paradox would occur. One might think that the paradox would be taken care off by the actions of Time Traveller being preserved by TTI alone, but his original dimensional crossing to Dimension 1 would have to be preserved as well.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread!

chrono eric, you sir - are correct-ish.   TTI gets rid of the paradox yes, but if the original crossing was not preserved, he would meet his double in his own dimension who chose to never traverse dimensions.   Since we hate doubles, Dimensional Bastard needs to exist.

DTI like TTI, however, would only cover the instance of dimensional travel and the "gate's" contents, so events could be changed.  But your example doesn't really necessitate it.  Because...

Just like TB, the "travel" never needs to happen for counterparts.  Once they reach Time X where the original did "travel", the counterparts will simply vanish.  So while we have a case for "DB" ,  the first instance of dimensional travel doesn't technically have to be preserved, as long as doubles are done away with.
This means that DTI doesn't need to exist, looking at this example at least.

EDIT: spelling haha  :D
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 01:09:32 pm by Eske »

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2008, 05:51:35 pm »
 TTI gets rid of the paradox yes, but if the original crossing was not preserved, he would meet his double in his own dimension who chose to never traverse dimensions.   Since we hate doubles, Dimensional Bastard needs to exist.

Ah I was so hung up on the paradox problem and preserving Time Travellers original crossing into Dimension 1 and subsequent Time Travel that I forgot about the double in Dimension 2! Yes, that makes perfect sense.

As for DTI however, would it not have to exist as well to preserve Time Travellers original crossing? It seems rather counterintuitive that it wouldn't, but that Time Traveller would still appear in X-100 protected by TTI anyways. But I suppose there is nothing that requires it to be so.

My entire example revolves around using time travel to create both a paradox and a duplicate of Time Traveller. Dimensional Travel alone would not create a duplicate or a paradox. But since DB is still required to prevent dimensional duplicates in the case of Time Travel, I wonder if DTI is still required to preserve timeline information in the case of time travel as well.

So let me make another example (just off the top of my head again). This example is slightly more complicated. In this example I call one person "Dimensional Traveller" and the other "Time Traveller" for sake of simplicity even though they both travel through time and the dimensions:

There are two dimensions, Dimension 1 and Dimension 2 that are parallel to each other in time. In Dimension 1 a terrible event happens in 600 AD that also happens in Dimension 2 in 600 AD. A Time Traveller from Dimension 2 first travels back in time to 600 years ago in Dimension 2, altering Dimension 2's future by his presence, and then crosses over to Dimension 2 (likewise at 600 years ago), where he stops the terrible event in Dimension 1 but not Dimension 2 - thus altering Dimension 1's future. A Dimensional Traveller from Dimension 1 then crosses to Dimension 2 and travels back in time 600 years 1 minute before Time Traveller arrives due to TTI and kills Time Traveller. If DTI does not exist, then the future in Dimension 1 should not be altered because Time Traveller would not appear there. Let's see:

Dimension 2, Time X: Time Traveller goes back to 600 years ago.

Dimension 2, Time X-600: Time Traveller crosses over to Dimension 1.

Dimension 1, Time X-600: Time Traveller stops the terrible event from happening in Dimension 1, altering it's future in the process.

Dimension 1 (new future timeline), Time X: Dimensional Traveller crosses over to Dimension 2 and travels back in time 600 years - 1 minute.

Dimension 2 (new future timeline), Time X-600-1 minute: Dimensional Traveller appears and awaits Time Travellers arrival by TTI. When he arrives, he kills Time Traveller. Does this action alter the future in Dimension 1, or not?

Well, if DTI does not exist then the future of Dimension 1 will be altered. Dimensional Traveller may still appear in X-600-1 minute because of TTI (DTI may not be required even though he appears in another dimension). If DTI does exist then the future in Dimension 1 is preserved and the only way to change it would be to kill Time Traveller in Dimension 1. So what's the answer?

This is a very interesting situation. I can't find a reason why DTI would have to exist at all because TTI accounts for the appearance of time travellers in other dimensions regardless of their original crossing of that dimension. It's the act of appearance that is preserved. Hell, if time travellers can appear out of nowhere from dead timelines as is the case with TTI, then I see no reason why DTI would be required in this case.

The only thing I could think of is that the Conservation of Energy rationale applies here too, and that DTI would have to exist on those grounds. But since dimensional travel doesn't seem to create paradoxes by itself, I see no reason why it DTI would have to exist in that light.



« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 05:54:16 pm by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2008, 08:46:20 pm »
Dimension 1, Time X-600: Time Traveller stops the terrible event from happening in Dimension 1, altering it's future in the process.

Dimension 1 (new future timeline), Time X: Dimensional Traveller crosses over to Dimension 2 and travels back in time 600 years - 1 minute.

Dimension 2 (new future timeline), Time X-600-1 minute: Dimensional Traveller appears and awaits Time Travellers arrival by TTI. When he arrives, he kills Time Traveller. Does this action alter the future in Dimension 1, or not?

Well, if DTI does not exist then the future of Dimension 1 will be altered. Dimensional Traveller may still appear in X-600-1 minute because of TTI (DTI may not be required even though he appears in another dimension). If DTI does exist then the future in Dimension 1 is preserved and the only way to change it would be to kill Time Traveller in Dimension 1. So what's the answer?

This is a very interesting situation. I can't find a reason why DTI would have to exist at all because TTI accounts for the appearance of time travellers in other dimensions regardless of their original crossing of that dimension. It's the act of appearance that is preserved. Hell, if time travellers can appear out of nowhere from dead timelines as is the case with TTI, then I see no reason why DTI would be required in this case.

The only thing I could think of is that the Conservation of Energy rationale applies here too, and that DTI would have to exist on those grounds. But since dimensional travel doesn't seem to create paradoxes by itself, I see no reason why it DTI would have to exist in that light.





Well,  TTI needs to exist because if it didn't,  one could go back in time and change the past so that the time travel event would never occur.  Dimensional travel wouldn't work the same way in these examples because you are only changing where you are located in terms of space and not time. However...

lets see:

I will call Time Traveller "A" and Dimensional Traveller "B".

A travels back from D2: Time X  to D2: Time X-600
A's appearance there is locked and will always happen no matter what.
A then travels from D2: Time X-600 to D1: Time X-600.
A's appearance there is NOT locked and can be overwritten.
In D1: Time X, Time Error Y+1 , B goes back to D1: Time X-600-1min,
B's appearance there is locked and will always happen no matter what.
B kills A.
D1's future will change back to how it was before A's original intervention.

Why?  No DTI involved.   A appears in his own dimension 600 years in the past no matter what.  With the same intentions he always had, he crosses dimensions to prevent the tragedy.  In Time Error Y+1,  B  will kill A before A can change the future (again), thus sending the bright future to the DBT.  So from Time Error Y+1 and onward, the bright future of Dimension 1 will never exist because B will always emerge from the gate to kill A   and A will always emerge from the 600AD gate in Dimension 2 with conviction to enter Dimension 1.   Even if a third party was involved - say to go to Dimension 2: X-600 to stop A from traversing Dimensions,    B (under TTI) would still always appear and would simply wait for someone who would never show.

I've thought about a few examples, and I can't find one that creates a paradox, mostly because dimensional travel only leads to the same Time X, so no paradox can ever be created -  and any time travel issue is countered by TTI.

We need an example where time travel + dimensional travel creates a situation where even TTI would not avoid a paradox.   


EDIT: Alright I think I've got it.


Professor A invents a Time Travel "gate key" and can open time gates anywhere.
Then, 10 minutes later, he invents a machine that creates a Dimensional Vortex that exists in all time periods (like CTDS) and is fixed in place, and can only exist if the machine is operational.
Professor A can lay time gates perfectly on top of the Dimensional Vortex to use both simultaneously.
Professor A indeed uses his devices simultaneously, immediately after both are invented.

From Dimension 1, Time X,   Professor A travels to  Dimension 2, Time X-10.
There, he tells a resident, Person B, to traverse dimensions  to Dimension 1 and kill Professor A before all means of extra/other spatial travel were invented.   

Person B at D2: Time X-10 travels  to     D1: Time X-10 and kills Professor A just seconds after Time Travel is invented.  Dimensional Travel is never invented.

Now lets add  "1" to Time Error and play this through again.

A (time) gate will open in Time X-10 no matter what.   But where?     Time portals will always open no matter what because of TTI.  So if no dimensional travel can exist, the second time things happen, the will portal open in Dimension 1, instead of Dimension 2.  Which means Professor A (who, by TTI, will always remember inventing dimensional travel as well) will appear 10 minutes into the past, meet the counterpart of Person B and tell him to cross dimensions to kill Professor A.  Professor A will be shocked to see that the dimensional vortex no longer exists.   (If the machine is rendered inoperable, the vortex ceases to exist in all time periods.  like how the CTDS  portals only exist in all time periods for Time Error Y+1 after they are created at Time Error Y.)

That means that no version of Person B crosses dimensions (NOT time) to kill Professor A.  If DTI did not exist  this would create a loop because if Person B can't kill Professor A, then dimensional travel will exist --  but then Person B would now be able to kill Professor A, negating the existence of dimensional travel - and so on.

Good call chrono eric,  Dimensional Traveller Immunity exists.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 09:40:03 pm by Eske »

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2008, 05:39:13 am »
Yes, that was a much better example. Interesting though that the paradox only arises because the dimensional vortexes (vortices?) exist in all time periods simultaneously. With basic dimensional travel across dimensions without time travel, it's impossible to create a paradox, and then all paradoxes that are created can be accounted for by TTI except in your example.

I've found nothing on the Compendium site in articles and nothing in previous threads in the forum that demonstrate a 'proof' of DTI and DB. Perhaps we should suggest updating the "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel" article?

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2008, 01:16:23 pm »
Yes, that was a much better example. Interesting though that the paradox only arises because the dimensional vortexes (vortices?) exist in all time periods simultaneously. With basic dimensional travel across dimensions without time travel, it's impossible to create a paradox, and then all paradoxes that are created can be accounted for by TTI except in your example.

I've found nothing on the Compendium site in articles and nothing in previous threads in the forum that demonstrate a 'proof' of DTI and DB. Perhaps we should suggest updating the "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel" article?

Sure, it was a pretty fun discussion.   8)   I saw some people up there talking about "if TD is killed, dimensional stuff will cease to exist so how does lynx do what he does"  etc.  and we can now try to plug this idea into those examples and see what happens.

I, myself, haven't played CC in years so my knowledge is too low to actually apply it.  So I hope you can  :D

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2008, 06:13:15 pm »
Yeah this discussion was definitely the most fun one that I've participated in on the forums. Thanks Eske!

Well, I think the Compendium's article on "Chrono Cross Resolutions" is highly flawed anyways. I made up my own ending theory which is much more concise in this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

But now I'll have to modify it slightly to account for DB and DTI. Basically, I concluded that TB and TTI would not be preserved in the unified timeline after 1010 A.D. if a time travel event happened in one timeline but not the other, because hopeless complications would arise. I imagine DB and DTI would be the same thing (ex: Another Vann never dimensionally travelled, but Home World Vann did. So does Ideal Vann disappear at the time of Another Vann's travel across the dimensions, or not?). If we go by the Compendium's classic conservation of energy rationale, then in the new Ideal Timeline after 1010 AD individuals would disappear and not reappear if DB was kept in place, but only if the travel took place by an individual in one dimension but not the other.  So you're left with energy actually being destroyed and not conserved (even if DTI makes that individual appear later on, that energy still isn't conserved in the interval). Quite a lot could be elucidated about the potential ending of Cross and the nature of the Ideal Timeline if this is correct.

Maybe we could debate this now for fun?  :D

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2008, 12:28:21 am »
Yeah this discussion was definitely the most fun one that I've participated in on the forums. Thanks Eske!

Well, I think the Compendium's article on "Chrono Cross Resolutions" is highly flawed anyways. I made up my own ending theory which is much more concise in this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

But now I'll have to modify it slightly to account for DB and DTI. Basically, I concluded that TB and TTI would not be preserved in the unified timeline after 1010 A.D. if a time travel event happened in one timeline but not the other, because hopeless complications would arise. I imagine DB and DTI would be the same thing (ex: Another Vann never dimensionally travelled, but Home World Vann did. So does Ideal Vann disappear at the time of Another Vann's travel across the dimensions, or not?). If we go by the Compendium's classic conservation of energy rationale, then in the new Ideal Timeline after 1010 AD individuals would disappear and not reappear if DB was kept in place, but only if the travel took place by an individual in one dimension but not the other.  So you're left with energy actually being destroyed and not conserved (even if DTI makes that individual appear later on, that energy still isn't conserved in the interval). Quite a lot could be elucidated about the potential ending of Cross and the nature of the Ideal Timeline if this is correct.

Maybe we could debate this now for fun?  :D


When the dimensions split, Home World does not receive the benefit of Crono and Co.'s time travel exploits.  In other words, Lavos still rises in 1999AD to destroy the world.   Only Another World preserves TTI.   This is  because only one copy of Crono and Co. could travel to 1999AD to destroy Lavos.    So we see that splitting dimensions can take away TTI/TB but... I would still think that putting dimensions back together in an ideal timeline would result in ALL TTI events being preserved.   

DTI/DB..... don't know.

I don't recall CC well enough to give examples, unfortunately.  I need to work off an example that someone else presents   :D

killercactus

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2008, 09:27:21 am »
I will add something to your guys' discussion on this - we aren't sure Lavos is killed in 1999 AD.  In fact, I thought the site was now supporting the "Lavos is killed in 12000 BC" theory, as the Black Omen path to Lavos seemed to be the most canon.  If that is true, we don't know that the dimensional split preventing Crono from appearing is what causes the ruined future, since Lavos is killed before the split.  All we know is that Serge's survival causes Home World's future to be ruined, and that Kid's time travel to save Serge (not Schala's intervention) causes the split.  Remember, Schala intervenes in 1004 or something - the dimensions split in 1010, when Kid saves Serge.  Serge is only significant because he is the Arbiter, and I can only think of two reasons why his survival would cause a dimensional split instead of a normal new timeline.

1) When Serge contacted the Frozen Flame, it created a bond between himself and the TD (much like Schala's, but far weaker, since he only touched a piece of Lavos).  Since the TD's mind is half bent on destroying the world and half bent on saving it, and something connected to the TD survived, the dimensions split into one that was saved, and one that was destroyed.

2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

I'm not quite sure what that says about DTI and DB, but it might mean that Home World's existence doesn't prove it..

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2008, 11:50:26 am »
2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

Actually, FATE 'arrived' in 7,600 BC, not 12,000 BC. Being in 2,400 AD at the Time Crash, and 'sent' 10,000 years back in time:

10,000 - 2,400 = 7,600

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2008, 12:52:04 pm »
I will add something to your guys' discussion on this - we aren't sure Lavos is killed in 1999 AD.  In fact, I thought the site was now supporting the "Lavos is killed in 12000 BC" theory, as the Black Omen path to Lavos seemed to be the most canon.  If that is true, we don't know that the dimensional split preventing Crono from appearing is what causes the ruined future, since Lavos is killed before the split.  All we know is that Serge's survival causes Home World's future to be ruined, and that Kid's time travel to save Serge (not Schala's intervention) causes the split.  Remember, Schala intervenes in 1004 or something - the dimensions split in 1010, when Kid saves Serge.  Serge is only significant because he is the Arbiter, and I can only think of two reasons why his survival would cause a dimensional split instead of a normal new timeline.

1) When Serge contacted the Frozen Flame, it created a bond between himself and the TD (much like Schala's, but far weaker, since he only touched a piece of Lavos).  Since the TD's mind is half bent on destroying the world and half bent on saving it, and something connected to the TD survived, the dimensions split into one that was saved, and one that was destroyed.

2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

I'm not quite sure what that says about DTI and DB, but it might mean that Home World's existence doesn't prove it..

Don't forget that the Black Omen did not "rise from the sea" in 12,000BC.  It phased in from an enormous gate, as mentioned in the game.  It also displays some PD-like qualities.  We have no idea when it initially rose or what time period it truly connects to, if any.

Also, even if the Compendium holds that 12,000BC was when Lavos was killed - Lavos's appearance in 1999AD outside of his PD will be spared by TTI no matter what.   No version of Lavos killed before or after 1999AD has anything to do with the Lavos who does appear in 1999.   The Compendium can't hold 12,000BC without giving up features of PD and/or TTI.

killercactus

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2008, 01:46:03 pm »
2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

Actually, FATE 'arrived' in 7,600 BC, not 12,000 BC. Being in 2,400 AD at the Time Crash, and 'sent' 10,000 years back in time:

10,000 - 2,400 = 7,600

I can't find on the site right now where it explains this, but I know that it's at least discussed in the Salt for the Dead Sea article - it's been proposed that the Time Crash actually threw Chronopolis back to 12000 BC instead of 7600 BC.  I believe it had something to do with Lavos being awoken during the Ocean Palace disaster, which is when he was supposed to have done the pulling.

EDIT:  I also think it's mentioned somewhere that Lavos did it specifically to mess up Crono and Co., who were present in 12000 BC.

Imagine then Crono and Co. arriving in 12000 BC to board the Black Omen, and seeing Chronopolis there.  I'm sure they would go to investigate it.  FATE, being locked out of the flame, cannot stop them.  Something happens to them there, and they die or are trapped like Miguel. 

Also, Eske, I've always thought of the Omen like the Sea of Eden - an entire 3D area of space-time connected to the same geographical points in the other eras.  We know that it was built in 12000 BC, and no matter where you enter it, it is the same.  Perhaps the geographical area that the Black Omen hovers over in 12000 BC is connected to that same area in each subsequent era and, whenever someone enters it, they are transported back to 12000 BC. 

EDIT: Also, I don't think Lavos' emergence in 1999 AD is protected by TTI or DTI.... we aren't Time Traveling within Lavos' PD, we're traveling within Crono's dimension.  If we go back in time in Crono's dimension, then enter the PD and kill Lavos, Lavos hasn't time traveled at all.   So, I don't know if he's granted TTI
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 02:27:38 pm by killercactus »

chrono eric

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2008, 02:53:04 pm »
I don't recall CC well enough to give examples, unfortunately.  I need to work off an example that someone else presents   :D

Here's a hypothetical example for you  :D. Try to reconcile it with what we know about TB and TTI. You'll see that the same problems arise with TB and TTI after 1010 AD as they do with DB and DTI after 1010 A.D.

Two dimensions exist, Home World (x) and Another World (y). When they fuse together at the end of Cross we get Ideal World (xy). The present date is 1020 A.D. and the split occurred in 1010 A.D. Presumably the timeline is shared before then in both dimensions, and both dimensions share all TTI/TB instances before then as well.

In Home World exists a Time Traveller X, in Another World exists his doppelganger, Time Traveller Y. Due to certain circumstances beyond his control, in Home World Time Traveller X goes 5 years back in time but in Another World he does not time travel at all. Some independent event then happens which alters the future of Home World again, but not Another World. Now, within the self-contained timeline of Home World, you have an event wherein Time Traveller X vanishes due to TB in 1020 A.D. and appears due to TTI in 1015 A.D. In Another World Time Traveller Y does not vanish or appear at all.

Now we know from the script of Chrono Cross that the Chrono Cross literally fuses the dimensions and fuses the consciousness of the inhabitants of those dimensions. That means that in the Ideal Timeline you now have a third individual, Time Traveller XY, that is different from the previous two.

So what happens now in the Ideal Timeline history? Does Time Traveller XY disappear in 1020 A.D. and reappear in 1015 A.D. as Time Traveller X did before him? Or does he not disappear as Time Traveller Y did before him? I propose that he does not disappear due to TB and reappear due to TTI because he is literally a different person than Time Traveller X. The TB and TTI events involved Time Traveller X. Time Traveller XY, despite looking identical, is as different from Time Traveller X as Time Traveller Y is.

By this reasoning, I deduce that TTI and TB events are not preserved after 1010 A.D. in the Ideal Timeline if they happened differently in both dimensions. If the same time travel event happened in both dimensions after 1010 A.D. (ie: if both Time Traveller X and Y time travelled and in the same fashion), you'll notice that this problem doesn't arise.

And the most enticing part about this theory: If you make the assumption (based on logical reasoning) that TTI, TB, DTI, and DB are not preserved after 1010 A.D. in the Ideal Timeline, it actually creates an "ideal" sequence of events! Try to do it yourself or look at my timeline in the other thread. Furthermore, it passes Occam's Razor far, far better than does the Compendium's Chrono Cross Resolutions article.


Imagine then Crono and Co. arriving in 12000 BC to board the Black Omen, and seeing Chronopolis there.  I'm sure they would go to investigate it.  FATE, being locked out of the flame, cannot stop them.  Something happens to them there, and they die or are trapped like Miguel. 

Yes, but remember that this exists in an intermediate timeline before the dimensions split in a Time Error sense. What I mean is that Chronopolis is first sent back in time, and then when 1010 A.D. rolls around the first time the dimensions do not split but Serge still dies. Then, Kid is sent back in time to save him, which only then creates the split in 1010 A.D.

Thus, the two dimensions likely share an identical history before 1010 A.D., and this demonstrates that Chronopolis' appearance is not enough to stop Crono and co. from saving the world.

And besides, Lavos exits his pocket dimension in 1999 A.D which means he would be subject to TTI there. While the Black Omen is the canon path, they are probably transported to 1999 A.D. at the end of it where they fight Lavos.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 03:12:40 pm by chrono eric »

Eske

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Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2008, 03:35:24 pm »
You are right in that Person XY will not be subject to Time Bastard in 1020AD. He is literally a different entity now. But I still think that Person X will appear in 1015AD.

It sounds strange, but take a look:

If I go back in time and kill Crono before he can ever go to the Millennial Fair, he will still appear in 600AD no matter what.

If I go back in time and kill Crono's mother before Crono is born, he will still appear in 600AD no matter what.

If I go back in time and destroy the world in 50000BC.  Crono (poor guy) will appear in space in 600AD no matter what.

In 1020AD, Person X and Person Y will have their consciousnesses merged, as the game suggests - so Person X, as we know him, ceases to exist.

But Person X should still appear from the gate in 1015AD, no matter what.