Author Topic: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?  (Read 2990 times)

FaustWolf

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A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« on: December 13, 2008, 01:54:09 am »
I don't recall this being addressed previously, probably because it's so esoteric, but here goes:

Let's say I want to open a gate to the Darkness Beyond Time and go fight the Dream/Time Devourer. How do I get there? I.e., what's the "recipe" for this special gate?

There are three sets of individuals who successfully made it into the DBT by something other than sheer accident: Serge & co; Eclipse Magus in CT:DS, and Crono & co. in CT:DS. We don't know how Eclipse Magus ended up there, but we do know the following:

Serge's Case:
Serge opens a gate straight into the DBT by using a Time Egg on Opassa Beach. This DBT gate lies within feet of an Angelus Errare, a dimensional distortion.

Crono Case:
The Time Bucket, which contains a Gate to 1999AD, is used to travel to the DBT. This can occur only after dimensional distortions have opened up "in every age," as Magus explains in the English script.

We do not know for sure whether a similar dimensional distortion also forms in the End of Time, but by virtue of the fact that they form "in every age," I'm leaning toward the hypothesis that a dimensional distortion does form there, and in that bucket. If so, we have two instances in which a temporal distortion added to a dimensional distortion leads straight to the DBT.

Are there any more clues on the subject of the conditions needed to open DBT gates? They seem to differ from either time gates or dimensional distortions by virtue of where they lead. If you add a dimensional distortion and a time gate together, do you automatically get a DBT gate?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 01:58:08 am by FaustWolf »

chrono eric

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2008, 09:05:00 pm »
I am under the impression that a gate or potential gate to the DBT appears at any point in the timeline where a significant alteration of the timeline occurs. In Serge's case, the entire timeline split at Opassa Beach. The gate was probably there all along, but he just couldn't access it. In Crono and co.'s case, perhaps the defeating of Lavos in 1999 AD is a possible reason why the Gate to the DBT happens to coincide with the gate to 1999 AD at the End of Time? Defeating Lavos there would certainly drastically alter the timeline by shunting everything after 1999 AD to the DBT.

So my hypothesis: Every time the future is shafted to the DBT, a residual gate to the DBT is left over. The bigger the alteration to the timeline, the more prominent the DBT Gate. Minor instances of time travel without great alteration of future events would likely not create a big or stable enough gate to the DBT to permit travel to.

But that's just my hypothesis, which accounts for several facts about the locations of the DBT gates.

Thought

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 01:13:32 pm »
A temporal distortion does seem to be necessary, as does a dimensional distortion. Notably, this implies that dimensional distortions are not temporal distortions (seems obvious, but I am going somewhere with this). If these two distortions are different things, then that implies that the majority of the time when one changes a timeline, it does not create a new dimension. As such, the creation of dimensions must be limited and special events (probably going from Belthasar's comment of a 50/50 chance of Serge's death; a single timeline cannot be determined, so both timelines exist simultaneously).

It might be, then, that what leads one into the DBT is when temporal and dimensional matters cannot be resolved. If one attempts time travel at the point where dimensions split, into which future (or past) will one travel? If that matter can't be resolved, it might shunt the individual into a point of least resistance (the DBT). Thus, it isn’t so much the Dimensional Distortion or the Temporal Distortion that allows one to access the DBT, it is the stress caused by the two interacting (sort of like putting matter and anti-matter next to each other; each can function quite happily apart from the other, but together bad things happen).

Just a thought.

FaustWolf

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 01:53:50 pm »
I'm sort of inclined to believe in a combination of what Thought and chrono eric have proposed; in chrono eric's case, I would change:

Quote from: chrono eric
Every time the future is shafted to the DBT, a residual gate to the DBT is left over.

to:

Quote
Every time there's a split in dimensions, a residual Angelus Errare is left over.

...with the stress between an Angelus Errare and a time Gate functioning in close proximity somehow creating a gate to the DBT per Thought's hypothesis. I rather like the idea of a time Gate "getting confused" and just dumping the traveler into the DBT as a result.

placidchap

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 02:13:44 pm »
might be able to get to the DBT in 65m BC then, based on what has just been said.  This is presuming that the Reptite Dimension results from Lavos never coming to Earth.  "Lavos" vs. "Reptite" dimensions.

edit:

There is already a gate at the point of impact, so assuming that is where the dimensional distortion would also be, one might need more than the Angelus Errare and a time gate.  Time egg maybe?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 02:20:49 pm by placidchap »

Thought

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 02:45:10 pm »
Only assuming that the dimensions split there, which is unlikely. Once Lavos began to fall, it isn't like it could have hit the ground or not; it was pretty much assured. Thus, the dimensional split would have had to have been before Lavos was going to irrevocably hit the earth (if there was a dimensional split at all). This might be thousands of years further in the past on a totally different planet (the one Lavos came from). Or it might have been the result of a different dimension having different universal constants (perhaps gravity was slightly stronger or slightly weaker), changing the course of Lavos so he wouldn't hit earth.

placidchap

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 03:02:52 pm »
The 'actual' point of change for the Reptites is when that spikey ball of fire smacks the Earth which is what I was thinking caused the Reptites demise and the possibility of the dimensional split.  Yes, there could have been one (or more) key factor(s) in the past that changed the path of Lavos so it never comes to Earth, but that could also be said elsewhere in the actual events of Trigger.  It is the actions of Crono and crew that basically create Serge, but it is assumed that dimensions don't split until his 50/50 shot at death in 1010(?)AD.  The same could be said about the impact, summed up as Lavos hits the Earth vs Lavos does not.  The glaring difference is that Serge is at the same point when the split happens, whereas one Lavos would be somewhere in space and the other hitting the Earth, which is probably what you are getting at. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:07:28 pm by placidchap »

BROJ

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 03:19:34 pm »
Going back to a previous point, don't AEs only connect to sibling dimensions(i.e. same parent dimension)? I think there's confusion between single child dimensional splits(traditional dimensional split in CT) and twin/multiple child dimensional splits(Time Crash) going on here. Though, Lavos' arrival could've caused a time crash in itself if time is merely a function of the Entity. There is proof to this effect because there is coexisting(i.e. neither have been shunted to the DBT) "Reptite dimension" and Keystone dimension.

Hmm... perhaps the Entity splits the dimensions at moments of great stress to preserve it's own 'life'. Kinda like a hydra, I suppose.

Sorry for going off topic; I would say all it would take to produce a full AE would be a weak point in 4D/5D space in a multi-child system and a Time Egg or an object with similar characteristics thereto.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:22:07 pm by BROJ »

Thought

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 04:21:43 pm »
Sorry, BROJ, I'm not clear on what you mean between single child dimensional splits and twin/multiple dimensional splits. Could you explain a little more?

utunnels

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2008, 04:54:54 pm »
Serge's Case:
Serge opens a gate straight into the DBT by using a Time Egg on Opassa Beach. This DBT gate lies within feet of an Angelus Errare, a dimensional distortion.

Quote from: Radical Dreamers Script
Hand over the Chrono Trigger, Kid. Little do you know, but that rock is actually a tiny, condensed universe. When combined with the Frozen Flame, it gains the power to bend space-time, allowing its owner to reshape history. This all could have never happened, if you merely wish it...

Quote from: Radical Dreamers Script
And with that, the fragments of the shattered Chrono Trigger fall to the ground softly.
 The cavern before us slowly starts to come apart, bending inward and outwards like a tear in reality, until we are completely removed from its existence...

And my retranslation about this line:
Quote
The Time Egg shatters, countless fragments fall to this world with hatred and sorrow...
The world breaks apart, swallows all of us in, then shuts above us.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 04:56:37 pm by utunnels »

FaustWolf

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2008, 07:56:49 pm »
Quote from: placidchap
...one might need more than the Angelus Errare and a time gate.

I think I read in the Compendium Encyc that Belthasar specially treated the gate on Opassa Beach in some way. Anyone remember what he did exactly? And why is it that the gate only opens up after Serge & co. defeat the Dragon God? It might go a long way toward explaining the necessary ingredients.

BROJ

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2008, 09:48:01 pm »
Sorry, BROJ, I'm not clear on what you mean between single child dimensional splits and twin/multiple dimensional splits. Could you explain a little more?
A picture would probably do one better.

In a single child split(SPS), only one dimension remains active, the original is shunted to the DBT. That said, in a multiple child split(MPS), the original is still sent to the DBT, however two(or more, theoretically anyways) dimensions remain active bonded by a chord(not necessarily perpendicular1 as in the case of the Dinopolis/Chronopolis interaction during the Time Crash) known as an Angeles Errare.

1
Synchronized time

FaustWolf

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 01:27:54 am »
Does the fact that the Entity is able to pull Dinopolis out of the Reptite-Dragonian dimension indicate that that dimension resulted from a Multiple Child Split in your reasoning, BROJ?

BROJ

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 02:12:30 am »
Does the fact that the Entity is able to pull Dinopolis out of the Reptite-Dragonian dimension indicate that that dimension resulted from a Multiple Child Split in your reasoning, BROJ?
Yes, and no. A MPS is, in my theory, a reaction of the Entity when it's 'life' is put in jeopardy. Take the Lavos incident for instance; The Entity foresaw it's demise and generated an MPS consisting of the Reptite dimension and the Keystone dimension to preserve it's essence. On the other hand, though, the Time Crash incident reverted the removal of Lavos in the Keystone dimension vis á vis Serge's survival and Project Kid, forcing the Entity to split the dimensions once again to preserve it's essence. Btw, Faustwolf with the former incident, 'objects'(maybe powerful artifacts...) other than Dinopolis/Chronopolis would be able to pass through the hypothetical AE. :wink:

However, with respect to the Polis War, I'm afraid I don't have enough information to come to the conclusion that the Entity intentionally pulled Dinopolis out of the Reptite dimension.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 02:20:29 am by BROJ »

utunnels

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Re: A "cookbook" for creating a gate that leads to the DBT?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 03:12:15 am »
Does it mean in SPS, there are still countless/multiple time lines, but they just can't make contact with each other,
while in MPS, 2 of them just happened to be linked(by a wormhole or such)? That's why you can see the dead sea and travel between HW and NW.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 03:15:16 am by utunnels »