Author Topic: I don't understand King Guardia  (Read 1117 times)

Shrimpaholic

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I don't understand King Guardia
« on: December 01, 2008, 04:39:51 pm »
I'm playing the CT DS and I re-did the rainbow shell sidequest for the millionth time and it reminded me of something I never understood for years. The king in 600 AD agrees to keep the rainbow shell and then Crono's party goes to 1000 AD Guardia castle and right away the current king is on trial. The chancellor claims he sold the shell, but the king denies it saying no shell even exists, so it's impossible he sold it. Even outside the courtroom Marle claims it's a scam because there's no shell.

Okay I can understand Marle getting confused about time travel changes, since she's the traveller, her memories may be different, but that doesn't explain the king's ignorance. As soon as the shell got to the castle in 600 AD from that moment forward time would change to allow the shell being kept there. What I mean is when King Guardia XXXIII (I think, the 1000 AD one) was born in whatever year, say 940 AD, he'd have grown up with the shell already being a family heirloom that has been there for over 300 years. So in other words he should be fully aware the shell is in the castle because he knows no other history.

The best I can compare it to is when you changed the Porre mayor. Once you give the wife the jerky in 600 AD time changes so the new mayor in 1000 AD knows no other reality other than him being too generous. So in that sense King Guardia knows no other reality other than having the shell be the family's heirloom.

Also, wouldn't the king being put on trial jeopardize the events from the beginning of the game? I mean realistically the trial must have been going on for more than just that day, so a week or so at least, I mean it IS the trial of the millennium really, the king is about to be dethroned and the kingdom overtaken. So wouldn't the king being on trial, possibly imprisoned, erase all the fighting he did with Marle at the beginning of the game since he was too preoccupied with other matters to argue with her? I mean Marle would remember it, but again, the King would have no recollection yet in the courtroom he seems to acknowledge it all. 

Also it seems the king being on trial could jeopardize the fair, since with the kingdom in jeopardy who's going to set up a fair? It wouldn't have surprised me to go from 600 AD to 1000 AD and find the fair gone, since it was never set up to begin with given the current situation of the trial.

Dark Serge

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2008, 05:04:27 pm »
1. Obviously he was never told about it, the Rainbow Shell was probably just forgotten with time
2. The trial gone on for weeks? Dude, have you seen the trials in CT? It's a matter of minutes, really
3. The Millennial Fair was already set up so it wouldn't be gone and I don't know how you got that idea

Shrimpaholic

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2008, 06:26:32 pm »
I understand what you're saying, and yeah the trials go on for minutes because it's a game and we don't need an hour cutscene devoted to it, but I'm saying realistically even if the whole thing is a farce it'd take longer than just a couple hours and would be a big scandal, maybe like the OJ Simpson trial (lol), since it would be a first in the history of the country the king is thrown out.  Just like how IMO the climb up Death Peak surely must have taken a couple days since it's comparable to climbing Everest or something. Death Peak was the largest mountain on the planet and it wasn't just  a day's stroll to the summit.

mav

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2008, 07:21:28 pm »
1. Obviously he was never told about it, the Rainbow Shell was probably just forgotten with time
2. The trial gone on for weeks? Dude, have you seen the trials in CT? It's a matter of minutes, really
3. The Millennial Fair was already set up so it wouldn't be gone and I don't know how you got that idea
1. I don't know if it was obvious per se, but chances are that he was either not told about it or he forgot about it. I'd expect a 400 year-old family heirloom to be mentioned sometime during childhood, but who knows?
2. If we're going by that logic than saving the world takes 40 hours. Realistically, trials, especially ones of importance, take days, weeks, possibly months (depending on the evidence). If we're gonna assume that there was no evidence, then perhaps it was shorter.
3. I'll agree with you there; even with the King going through a trial the affairs of the kingdom are still maintained. The US didn't stop doing existing when we had to deal with Clinton's impeachment.

The real question is what the effect of the trial was on the time line, we don't really know how much time had past or what happened because of it...

KebreI

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2008, 09:53:45 pm »
1. I am going with the Consense that is was just kept secret then just forgotten until Yakra XIII learned about it.
2. The trial may have gone on longer then shown but it doesn't matter, because how long between delivering the shell and going to the trial is never stated, Plus the team wouldn't have changed due to TTI.
3. Fair was all ready set up, why stop a Millennial celebration for trail?

Xenterex

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 10:54:52 pm »
Quote
Also, wouldn't the king being put on trial jeopardize the events from the beginning of the game? I mean realistically the trial must have been going on for more than just that day, so a week or so at least, I mean it IS the trial of the millennium really, the king is about to be dethroned and the kingdom overtaken

Keep in mind that the flow of time continues forward despite changes done to the time line. Yakra XIII wouldn't necessarily put the king on trial right away if its a scheme to take over the kingdom. Plots take time to plan and then to put into place.  While it may just be game convenience that the trial didn't take place sooner in the time line from the point of their return, certain events would probably still transpire prior to the King being put on trial.  Think of Crono's trial as a trial for Yakra to see how he can utilize the courts for his purposes, or even how he can use those events to show his patriotism as a means of ensuring that succession would/should pass to him, or at least a crony in the right position.  (Its not like the gaurdian family line doesn't have cousins/nobles to try to fight for their place, I guess)

As far as the King's behavior goes, either:

1) translation oversight/error
2) the King himself actually is a time traveler somehow.  (jump into the portal after Marle, see the bleak future and run back! >.>)
3) The various stresses going on made him forget about the shell.  While the shell is on hold to be a 'national' treasure, it was obtained with the intents and purposes of sitting at the castle for 400 years where Melchior would be able to work with it.  After so many generations, how strong is the reminder, or belief going to be that time traveling heroes are coming for something stowed away in the basement?  The 1000 AD people don't say the "Crono Special" is named after Crono, but rather a hero from the past.  Somewhere along the lines in the 400ish period of time lapse, the information tradition simply isn't passed down or retained as well as it could be.

Meushell

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 11:41:58 pm »
Also, don't one of the soldiers make a comment about the treasury room being new? Something like, "Was there stairs there before?"

As for King Guardia not knowing, I found that strange too. While I've heard various explanations for this, it doesn't really make sense to me. Then again Marle getting confused striked me as odd too. Then again I always did this plot right after getting the rainbow shell, so its like, "Uh, Marle, you just asked your ancestors to hold on to it." Her confusion makes sense if she wasn't part of the party that got the rainbow shell in the first place.

As for the trial going on longer. I get the impression that it wasn't started until after Guardia's final fight with Marle (whenever you play that to be). Otherwise, as you said, him listening to fake Chancellor about how to deal with Marle while fake Chancellor is trying to frame him wouldn't make much sense. Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but doesn't it seem to be just starting when they arrive at the castle? I imagine the trial system taking longer than what is shown, but not weeks. I kind of figured that was the point. The accused isn't given any time to do anything.

dan0211

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2008, 05:04:55 pm »
Some people are immune to the meddeling of time travellers. This would be proven by the fact that Ayla is the ancestor of Marle's line and knows this. This would mean her and Kino's child would be protected in order to ensure Guardia's exsistence. The same would be said for the Time Egg chapter. Chrono sacrifices himself so that that Schala can save Magus and the two following him at the time. When they change time to save him, his sacrifice would've allowed them to escape thus they would be dead in his place. Guardia could be immune to the changes thus his memories would remain unaltered. Even the castle guards question wheter or not the treasure vault was there before.

yujinishuge

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 10:47:20 am »
The game is fairly consistent in having people not aware to changes in the timeline unless they are Gaspar, or one of the time travelers.

The soldier noticing the stairway is simply a hint for the player as to the location of the shell.  It perhaps would have been better if he had said, the stairway to the left has been off limits because it holds the secrets of the royal family.

I don't think it's a problem that the King doesn't know about the shell, because a lot can happen in 400 years.  We're talking about 13 generations later and revealing the shell at the millenial fair couldn't have been the focus of the court's existence for those 400 years.  It's a long lost secret that wasn't given national priority. 

As for when the trial takes place.   The king is in trouble for not revealing it at the Millenial Fair.  The Millenial Fair had to happen in order for the King to go on trial.  We know that Yakra was impersonating the Chancelor sometime before the trial of Crono.  So technically he could have sued the King the minute the Fair kicked off.  (That very day that Crono wakes up... (the first day of the Fair.)  However it would make more sense that he waits for the fair to start... then when the excitement goes down... perhaps 3 or 4 days later, he springs the trial.. this way the citizens are more focused on it, rather than on the Millenial Fair itself.

I always thought the game would have been better if the Black Omen were in 1000 AD, 600 AD and 2300 AD before it rises in Zeal.

killercactus

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 02:16:04 pm »
As far as the King remembering arguing with Marle, the Rainbow Shell may or may not have anything to do with that.  I would think that Marle's fighting with her father had to do with things that having the Rainbow Shell in the Kingdom hundreds of years ago didn't effect. 

Plus, remember that each time you warp back to 1000 AD, it might not be the same time of day, or even the same time of the month since you've last been there.  You could've originally left at say, noon, and when you get back, its 4:00 pm 5 days later.  We aren't given that information in the game, just that its 1000 AD. 

yujinishuge

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 03:24:37 pm »

Plus, remember that each time you warp back to 1000 AD, it might not be the same time of day, or even the same time of the month since you've last been there.  You could've originally left at say, noon, and when you get back, its 4:00 pm 5 days later.  We aren't given that information in the game, just that its 1000 AD. 

That's technically true up until you release the chancelor from the treasure chest.  You release him hours before the moonlight parade, so all subsequent departures and returns to 1000 AD occur within those hours before the midnight parade.

lockgar

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 03:37:53 am »
Part of Yakra's plan was to get Marle out of the way, so it is possible that he would have waited after Marle leaves the castle, before following through with his plan.

Stormsend

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 11:41:18 am »
First of all, Marle's character is a bit of a ditzy, naive schoolgirl. Simply forgetting about the adventure in 600 AD to get the shell is a very possible thing.

Secondly, family heirlooms are forgotten all the time. Marle's pendant is one, but it isn't forgotten because she wears it all the time. Things locked away in attics and cellars, on the other hand just sit there if the family doesn't move or anything. The King could simply have forgotten it was there. Maybe his father did, too. Who knows?

Lastly, nothing makes things more interesting than a big scandal. It wouldn't ruin the fair. It just gives the woman near Lucca's telepod more gossip.

Feldschlacht IV

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Re: I don't understand King Guardia
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 03:01:46 pm »
Quote
Secondly, family heirlooms are forgotten all the time. Marle's pendant is one, but it isn't forgotten because she wears it all the time. Things locked away in attics and cellars, on the other hand just sit there if the family doesn't move or anything. The King could simply have forgotten it was there. Maybe his father did, too. Who knows?

That's what I thought. What, does every king keep a constant inventory on everything he owns?