Author Topic: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion  (Read 4178 times)

radicalblues

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New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« on: November 23, 2008, 07:05:12 pm »
I'm opening this thread for some questions that rised in the other recent topics, and don't really dwell well into the discussión. This topic is not to discuss timelines or identities or whatever. Rather, to discuss the authenticity of Canon storyline for the new DS ending, linking the events directly to CC, or if it was just rather a peek that Kato decided to throw in.

SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY

The New DS Ending, How to get it
- You beat the game normally. You kill Lavos, and you see the PSX FMV where Crono and Marle marry, Lucca finds Kid, etc, and of course, the fall of Guardia post 1000 AD.
- After beating the game, new distortion dungeons appear in 1000 AD. This is on the same file, not New Game +.
- You find Dalton in one of those dungeons too, who talks about overthrowing Guardia.
- The Time's Eclipse appears on the bucket at The End of Time.
- You find another Magus at Time's Eclipse (please read this topic for discussion on that).
- You see the Dream Devourer.
- The Dream Devourer devours the other Magus' memories and dreams, leaving him as a new shell persona.
- What happens to the party is unknown.

Now, there can be two implications on this. One is, all of these events actually happened, Crono and the others met the Dream Devourer, then got sent back to 1000 AD with or without memories, Crono and Marle married, Lucca adopted Kid, fall of Guardia (them knowing about Dalton or not), or the other possibility... the party never met Dalton, never met the Dream Devourer, but this other Magus guy did met the Dream Devourer, and the party being there was just for letting the player see these events. In short:

It being canon:
- Crono and the others knew about Dalton wanting to overthrow Guardia.
- Crono and the others met the Dream Devourer.
- The other Magus gets his memories erased.
- Crono and the others either had their memories of these events erased, or remember everything.
- Crono and Marle marry, Lucca adopts Kid, Guardia falls.

It being non canon:
- Crono and the others never met Dalton.
- Crono and the others never met the Dream Devourer.
- The other Magus gets his memories erased.
- Crono and the others either won't remember anything since it never happened, and was just a game device.
- Crono and Marle marry, Lucca adopts Kid, Guardia falls.


I for one sustain that it's non canon, since it's mysteriously AFTER the normal ending... where all your party members scatter to their respective eras. There seem to be no point of re-union in 1000 AD after defeating Lavos with all portals active and them jumping into the bucket again... I think this was just a game device to include some extra material and let the player witness some story on the Time Devourer, explaining some about the fall of Guardia and Magus/Schala in the process.

Sorry for my rushed redaction and ideas, but I think that's the basic concept. What's your position?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 07:08:01 pm by radicalblues »

FaustWolf

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2008, 07:13:38 pm »
I think we're of the same position radicalblues, but I just want to clarify: you believe it's non-canon from the perspective that Crono & co. actually went through these things, but canon from the perspective that Future Magus actually confronted the Dream Devourer and Dalton actually led Porre to victory over Guardia, correct?

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2008, 07:20:02 pm »
From my point of view...

What DID happen was Magus finally reaches the Darkness Beyond Time, confronts Schala and the Dream Devourer, only to be told "it's all vain".  I also think it's canon that Dalton is the one who travels to Porre and helps shape Porre into the ability to destroy Guardia.  However, when, where, and how Dalton does that is still left vague and open to interpretation.

As for "did Crono and company" also travel to the Darkness Beyond Time and meet Schala and the Dream Devourer?  My answer?  No more than any of the other non-canon endings.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 07:21:15 pm »
My opinion remains as it is: The Crono and company who fought the Dream Devourer and the ones who fought Lavos are two different versions. They did fought the being, but they aren't the same who fought Lavos.

Dark Serge

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 07:24:47 pm »
How can you say for sure they fight the DD AFTER everyone goes back to their timelines? By your logic, Chrono's Mom should also have disappeared, which she has not. She's still in the house. Moreover, you can only access the DBT before you defeat Lavos. After you defeated Lavos the Vortexes become available, yes, but once they do you have to load your game where you haven't defeated Lavos yet to actually enter them.

radicalblues

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 07:32:47 pm »
FaustWolf: Yes, I believe that Dalton is behind Guardia's fall and that that one Magus faced the Dream Devourer, but Crono and the others weren't in the vortex distortions.

How can you say for sure they fight the DD AFTER everyone goes back to their timelines?

I never said that. I said that they had to fight them BEFORE they went to their respective timelines... otherwise it'd be impossible for them to do it. Since they're, uh, not together.

Dark Serge

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 07:45:47 pm »
I for one sustain that it's non canon, since it's mysteriously AFTER the normal ending... where all your party members scatter to their respective eras. There seem to be no point of re-union in 1000 AD after defeating Lavos with all portals active and them jumping into the bucket again...

radicalblues

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 08:04:19 pm »
Exactly. Gameplay wise it's after every party member goes to their respective timelines.

After the ending. After 1004 AD.

Gameplay wise 1000 AD time vortex dungeons are after 1004 AD ending FMVs D:

That's why I sustain that it didn't happen canonly. There wasn't time for it to happen. I'm with Boo and Faust.

Another possible explaining is what Acacia Sgt said, the post-ending character being Time Bastards suffering the consequences of Lavos being defeated by other dimensional party in his Pocket Dimension, opening the Time's Eclipse at the bucket... but this would make it so that after you finish the game for the first time, you're playing with a different dimension party, who, before even attempting to beat Lavos, had another party beat him before them. :lol:

Dark Serge

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 08:13:30 pm »
And here the rest of my previous post comes into play. The vortex opens after the ending, yeah, but you gotta load your game where you haven't got the ending yet to actually enter it.

I don't know how to explain it either exactly, but I'm not convinced it's a non-canon ending. They're meaning to tell us something with this ending, they didn't just throw it in randomly for the heck of it.

art_garfunkel

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 09:55:49 pm »
It's canon, but Chrono and the rest of them don't remember it, and it has no real influence on the timeline, so, it's almost nullified anyway.

The timeline I propose goes something like this:

Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos -> They return to the End of Time A new portal is there. They travel through the portal at Belthesar's request -> CTDS New Content -> They encounter Dalton -> They fight and lose to the Devourer. Schala wipes their memory of the event. Future Magus either wipes his own memory completely, or Schala does it for him. -> Chrono and Co. return triumphant to the Millennial Fair. -> Magus leaves in search of Schala, becoming Future Magus at some point.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2008, 12:24:54 am »
It's canon, but Chrono and the rest of them don't remember it, and it has no real influence on the timeline, so, it's almost nullified anyway.

The timeline I propose goes something like this:

Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos -> They return to the End of Time A new portal is there. They travel through the portal at Belthesar's request -> CTDS New Content -> They encounter Dalton -> They fight and lose to the Devourer. Schala wipes their memory of the event. Future Magus either wipes his own memory completely, or Schala does it for him. -> Chrono and Co. return triumphant to the Millennial Fair. -> Magus leaves in search of Schala, becoming Future Magus at some point.

Supported. I think this is S.E.'s way of filling in some plot holes between CT and RD/CC

ZeaLitY

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 01:50:27 am »
A plot hole is an inconsistency, not an absence of information.

radicalblues

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 04:20:31 am »
Chrono and Co. defeat Lavos -> They return to the End of Time A new portal is there. They travel through the portal at Belthesar's request -> CTDS New Content -> They encounter Dalton -> They fight and lose to the Devourer. Schala wipes their memory of the event. Future Magus either wipes his own memory completely, or Schala does it for him. -> Chrono and Co. return triumphant to the Millennial Fair. -> Magus leaves in search of Schala, becoming Future Magus at some point.

(By Belthasar you mean Gaspar, right?) I like the idea, it's not farfetched... but it would be weird having Gaspar question anything more... maybe he knew they couldn't do anything... or maybe the Dream Devourer also nibbled on Gaspar's thoughts? :P Geez, the Dream Devourer looks so freaking powerful... though I guess the Time Devourer is more dangerous eating entire timelines D:

placidchap

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 08:18:19 am »
And here the rest of my previous post comes into play. The vortex opens after the ending, yeah, but you gotta load your game where you haven't got the ending yet to actually enter it.

I don't know how to explain it either exactly, but I'm not convinced it's a non-canon ending. They're meaning to tell us something with this ending, they didn't just throw it in randomly for the heck of it.

I am backing this post as it sums up my feelings on it.  The details need to be worked out, but canon it is.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: New DS ending, did it really happen? Canon discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2008, 05:05:08 pm »
A plot hole is an inconsistency, not an absence of information.

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