Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

[Lilka]

Well, the whole reason I asked is because if it does count as time travel, Time Bastard gets invoked, and kinda makes the whole trip impossible.  I know, I know, theories should fit evidence, not the other way around, but still, the mere presence of EM...

[mikeb123]

Time bastard is just a theory. It doesn't have to fit in with it.

[art_garfunkel]

Well, the whole reason I asked is because if it does count as time travel, Time Bastard gets invoked, and kinda makes the whole trip impossible.  I know, I know, theories should fit evidence, not the other way around, but still, the mere presence of EM...

I don't see how Time Bastard has anything to do with Lavos being sent to the DBT.

EM?

Time bastard is just a theory. It doesn't have to fit in with it.

Time Bastard is an established law governing time travel in the Chrono universe. Everything has to work with it, or it is bust.

[Lilka]

Lavos being sent to the DBT isn't the problem.  It's how the Chrono Trigger team / Eclipse Magus (and to a lesser extent, Serge) get there that is.

Here's how I see it:

If going to the DBT of one's own will counts as time travel, time travel laws apply.  This includes Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard, of course.  Since the CT team are the ones gating in and interfering with the battle between EM and the Dream Devourer, they're the ones covered by TTI in this situation.  This leaves Time Bastard to work on Magus, set at a Time Error clearly before he becomes EM.  So Eclipse Magus gets erased from existence before he can even fight DD.  And thus, the scenario as played in CTDS becomes impossible.  The EM/DD fight may still have happened, but there's no way that Crono et al. saw it.

If going to the DBT of one's own will does NOT count as time travel, however, the new ending can stay intact, just with the damn stupid "Schala erased their memory" excuse.

Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong.  If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.

[Acacia Sgt]

Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong.  If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.

From what Eclipse Magus says, he is not the same Magus that is in the party, meaning the former can do his trip to the DBT even if the latter was killed back on the North Cape.

[art_garfunkel]

Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong.  If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.

From what Eclipse Magus says, he is not the same Magus that is in the party, meaning the former can do his trip to the DBT even if the latter was killed back on the North Cape.

No, he could be the Magus from your party, simply from the future. His dialogue is ambiguous enough however to accommodate both versions of events.

[Acacia Sgt]

Of course, there's also the possibility that I screwed up and am applying Time Bastard wrong.  If I am, I'd really like to know about it before I make an even bigger fool of myself.

From what Eclipse Magus says, he is not the same Magus that is in the party, meaning the former can do his trip to the DBT even if the latter was killed back on the North Cape.

No, he could be the Magus from your party, simply from the future. His dialogue is ambiguous enough however to accommodate both versions of events.

But he says that he does not know if he joined with the party. That is enough to say he is not the same Magus. Unless he was lying considering he says the same even if Magus is present, although the latter does reacts.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

I thought the line was as follows...

Voice: Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.

*reveals himself as another Magus*

Magus: Whether that is the future from which you come, I do not know.

OK, now that I've read the quote, he IMPLIES the possibility that he might not have joined the party, even if you did recruit Magus as well as have him in the party that shows up to meet him.

Art, if E.M. was from the future, he'd remember the battle and know that it was futile anyway since he saw his own future, which might have been stronger, get pwned just before the party fights the Dream Devourer. And yes, I can concede the possibility that E.M. was not in the party at the time.

That's why I think he might have been from another timeline. Remember, the Darkness Of Time runs perpendicular to the regular timeline(s).

[art_garfunkel]

I thought the line was as follows...

Voice: Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.

*reveals himself as another Magus*

Magus: Whether that is the future from which you come, I do not know.

OK, now that I've read the quote, he IMPLIES the possibility that he might not have joined the party, even if you did recruit Magus as well as have him in the party that shows up to meet him.

Art, if E.M. was from the future, he'd remember the battle and know that it was futile anyway since he saw his own future, which might have been stronger, get pwned just before the party fights the Dream Devourer. And yes, I can concede the possibility that E.M. was not in the party at the time.

That's why I think he might have been from another timeline. Remember, the Darkness Of Time runs perpendicular to the regular timeline(s).

Because of TTI Eclipse magus does not have to remember the events, because he would be immune to changes he made in the past. Just because theyre in the DBT does not mean that TTI is broken.

[The Black Wind]

Eclipse Magus could easily be Future Magus if we assume that Schala erased Crono and his party's memories of the battle and went on to defeat Lavos as normal. And likewise, he could also be from another timeline if you opted to kill Magus in your file. His dialogue is the same regardless of what you did. Because Eclipse Magus is intended to be canon, this means that the standard ending in which Magus is in your party is the canon ending. If that's the ending you got, then he is indeed Future Magus -- otherwise, you're from a different timeline.

[Lilka]

You can't apply TTI to Magus unilaterally.  If he has it, Crono and his party have it as well.

[art_garfunkel]

You can't apply TTI to Magus unilaterally.  If he has it, Crono and his party have it as well.

I think you fail to understand how Time Traveler Immunity works.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Time_Traveler%27s_Immunity.html

Please read that article and ask if you have any further questions.

[mikeb123]

Time Bastard is an established law governing time travel in the Chrono universe. Everything has to work with it, or it is bust.

Time bastard is never stated in the game. Unless the developers stated that it was canon, it is a theory. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying you can't disprove people's theories with other theories.

[Lilka]

...I think I see where I went wrong.  It took until I tried to graph it out for me to finally get what was going on.  I ended up with this.



Of course, there are inaccuracies.  The DBT isn't on the timeline itself, for one.  But it does seem to explain the timeline crossing going on.

[art_garfunkel]

Time Bastard is an established law governing time travel in the Chrono universe. Everything has to work with it, or it is bust.

Time bastard is never stated in the game. Unless the developers stated that it was canon, it is a theory. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying you can't disprove people's theories with other theories.

While they never have an explanatory text box saying "THIS IS TIME BASTARD AND THIS IS HOW IT WORKS" Time Bastard fits the the facts that THEY DID put into the game. Theory yes, but then again in true science theory is as good as it gets. So yes, you can disprove a theory using facts. Time Bastard is a theory grounded in facts (events that take occur in both Trigger and Cross).