Author Topic: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)  (Read 140212 times)

Thought

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #705 on: February 20, 2009, 07:04:19 pm »
Unfortunately, no, it was not stated (at least, not that I can find).

Here are the only quotes I could find even hinting at Demi-human origins:

Quote from: Direa
   'Tis sad...
   The mainland teachings state
   that humans and demi-humans
   are incompatible species.
   Is society moving farther and
   farther from living in harmony
   with nature?
   To consider separate
   even though the two
   are inseparable...?

Quote from: Steena
   This was about a hundred years
   ago, before immigrants from the
   mainland came to El Nido.
   The now extinct Dragonians,
   demi-humans, and our ancestors
   lived on the main island and not
   on the outlying islands.

There are a few others, but it is just that humans and demi-humans used to live together and that the demi-humans seem to be closer to the planet than normal humans. Nothing about where they came from, though.

FaustWolf

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #706 on: March 07, 2009, 09:43:48 pm »
Anyone tried fighting Crono's evil double/shade without Crono resurrected? One GameFAQs member just did, and this was the result:

Quote from: Iarwain_BenAdur
By pure coincidence, I saw this thread just as I was about to reach that point.
As you approach the end of the corridor, the characters recoil back a step.

Marle: No... all I can see are memories
of the times I spent with Crono.
I can't...I can't go on like this!
It's too much to take.

So, yeah. I guess I'll have to come back later.

Might tell us something about the nature of the shades. They appear to be disembodied memories if that quote from Marle is any indication.

Vehek

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #707 on: March 07, 2009, 09:51:48 pm »
The other lines for that, from my text dump of the Japanese version:
Quote
{Lucca}: All my memories of {Crono} just
keep flashing by for some reason. Oh, {Crono}!
I can't take this. Can we leave?

{Ayla}: {CronoNick}...
{Ayla} head just think {Crono}.
No can stop!
Oh, no...

{Frog}: I...cannot be here.
All my memories of {Crono} keep rushing back.
It's too much to bear.
Let us go back.

{Robo}: We must go back. My memory banks are
becoming overloaded with memories of {Crono}.
I am afraid I may go haywire at this rate.

FaustWolf

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #708 on: March 07, 2009, 10:19:42 pm »
Aha, thanks Vehek! I was wondering if it'd be the same in the Japanese version. Seems like the environment, at least, is imbued with something akin to disembodied memories able to take on a life of their own.

This may be related to "dream creatures" like Masa and Mune, depending on the separation between "dreams" and "memories" I guess. In any case, the temporal vortices apparently have some kind of memory-related properties. Interesting considering Magus tosses his memories there too.

Vehek

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #709 on: March 07, 2009, 10:34:18 pm »
Quote
Aha, thanks Vehek! I was wondering if it'd be the same in the Japanese version
Unless you think they altered the English script for the US and European releases, how does this show it's the same? Of course, I wouldn't expect Slattery to take liberties like that, but still.

FaustWolf

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #710 on: March 07, 2009, 11:00:12 pm »
I was just interested in verifying that both scripts present the evil shades as disembodied memories or something along those lines. I don't think I saw your posts about the Japanese script dump; is it safe to say that the English script for CT:DS is much more reliable than the English script for CT:SNES?

Zephira

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #711 on: March 08, 2009, 03:42:30 am »
Interesting considering Magus tosses his memories there too.
Magus ran out of memory, had to reformat. </stupid>

So, assuming the Shades are a collection of memories. They take the form or Crono, Marle and Lucca, and they show up in places that are important to them. The Alabaster Shade appears in Marle's bedroom, the Crimson Shade in Lucca's bedroom, and the Steel Shade by Leene's Bell. However, the Crimson Shade has a pretty advanced looking robot to accompany it. If these things are just collections of memories, where did that robot come from? Was it just an idea that Lucca had a while ago, but scrapped?
And why is the Steel Shade in Leene's Square? That is where Crono first met Marle, and they do get married, maybe that spot is special for them (though apparently, not as special for Marle).

The Black Wind

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #712 on: March 10, 2009, 06:47:12 pm »
The other lines for that, from my text dump of the Japanese version:
Quote
{Lucca}: All my memories of {Crono} just
keep flashing by for some reason. Oh, {Crono}!
I can't take this. Can we leave?

{Ayla}: {CronoNick}...
{Ayla} head just think {Crono}.
No can stop!
Oh, no...

{Frog}: I...cannot be here.
All my memories of {Crono} keep rushing back.
It's too much to bear.
Let us go back.

{Robo}: We must go back. My memory banks are
becoming overloaded with memories of {Crono}.
I am afraid I may go haywire at this rate.

Magus doesn't say anything? Not even a "Hmph! I care nothing for my recollections of this fool" or something along those lines?

placidchap

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #713 on: March 11, 2009, 08:50:09 am »
Perhaps they are DBT'd versions of the crew? ...from the DBT's lavos timeline?

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #714 on: March 11, 2009, 10:30:37 pm »
But aren't they from the Lavos Timeline?

Since by near the end of the game, there is hardly anyone from that timeline, the few who are still from there is because they time traveled at some point (like the Gurus), or they are from even before the first time travel done in the timeline's point of view (first arrival to 65M BC). And considering it starts with the Telepod incident...

Now, only considering the being DBT'd versions part, well, not much of an idea of why only those specific versions with a desire to attack their counterparts would appear in the vortexes.

Daggart

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #715 on: March 20, 2009, 03:23:55 pm »
Here is the impression I got of the new ending.

The dimensional vortex and the new ending are only accessible if you've already beaten Lavos. However, they do not take place after you beat Lavos. Instead you have the option of either facing him, or the Dream Devourer. As such, I think we have to consider this an alternate time line to the canon one. This alternate timeline is identical to the canon one, up until the ocean palace is destroyed, then it branches off. Where as the canon timeline continues with the party facing and defeating Lavos at the end of time, the alternate one has the party explore the dimensional vortex and ultimately face the dream devourer.

This clears up the plot ramifications of the new game content. For one, the canon party never stops Dalton because they never saw him in the vortex. The canon party new nothing of the dream devourer because they killed Lavos and went on with their merry little lives.

It would also make sense that Magus in the Dream Devourer sequence is canon Magus, after he leaves and before the current events in Chrono Cross. Upon discovering the Dream Devourer, Lucca and Robo and the guru impliment Project Kid (my recollection of how this happens is vague), where as Magus goes off on his own to kick its butt. And fails. 

Enker Of The Frost

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #716 on: April 11, 2009, 08:54:27 pm »
So it's been so long since I was on this website, and one thing that has changed, (besides my capability of typing  :lol:) is thought process. I've noticed that not many people have touched on the what the shades are, so I am going to take a shot and theorize of what I've been thinking.

What we understand so far is that the three shades take place within 12,000 BC, 1000 AD, and 2300 AD. Our past, present, and future, game-wise. Why then are the shades shapes of our three present day natives, no less? Further, who are they created by?

There are two distinct possibilities, that they are creations of the Entity, or DD/Schala/Lavos. Before I get into which I believe created it, though there may be little of mattering on it, I will go into why the shades are the shapes of our trio.


Scroll down to the end for simple condensation of what I state.

- - -

12,000 BC Marle's shade, the Alabaster Shade.

For those who don't know, the color Alabaster is a metonym of white. Interesting that Marle's element is water, mostly symbolized by blue, but then again things always look brighter in the past compared to the grim future.

12,000  BC is where everything begins from a storyline point of view. Of course in prehistory, that's where Lavos falls, but that's more a prologue to the events of what starts everything of the Chrono series. 12,000 BC is where the gurus are sent off, where Schala is met, where Zeal falls, where magic grows to grandoise, only to fall, where quite possibly the Guardia line truly comes into fruition.

Of course, Kino IS the supposed ancestor to Guardia, but it's all possible of what bloodlines meet where. For example, the pendant Marle has, has been in the line for generations, and of course, its Schala's pendant. 12,000 BC is the beginning of where the royal bloodlines of Guardia starts, with the differences of Earthbounds and Enlightened Ones shattering... 12,000 BC is also where the Fiendlord himself comes from, where the Mammon Machine comes, and so on, not to restate myself.

Like this time period, Marle is the representation of the past, of beginnings. It is with Marle that our story begins. A tomboy princess that starts our hero and eventually, our motley crew out on their way. It's with her asking that they should save the world and undo this terrible Day of Lavos that everything begins. A lot of the major storyline point begin with the Princess. Leene's Bell. The Pendant to get into the doors of the throne room of Zeal. Marle's own sidequest is the beginning of her and Crono's life together, after the shaky past she had with her father and the loss of her mother.

Most interestingly of all, this DV sits next to the new settlement in 12,000 BC.

1000 AD Crono The Steel Shade


Crono is the present in every sense of the word. He is always at our forefront, even when slain. He is our present, always in the present, and the group's de facto leader. It makes sense of course that the shade is represented by him. There is little much to say besides the point that he is 'always there'. When  Marle needed to be rescued, he was there. To help Frog defeat Magus, he was there. To defeat Azala, he was there (Twice). Even when he had been killed by Lavos, he was in the thoughts and hearts of his comrades and it became their mission to bring him back. He is that important, he is that much a symbol of present time.

And no need to state it, 1000 AD is the present, current time.

That DV sit next to the fairgrounds, and Crono's home.


2300 AD Lucca The Crimson Shade

I truly love the fact that this dimensional vortex sits next to the Geno Dome. As you have guessed even before I typed the words, Lucca is a representation of the future. It is her machinery, combined with Marle's pendant that sends the princess through the first time trip. It is her genius that creates the Gate Key, her genius that fixes up Robo, many times no less. While major story points begin with Marle's hand, plot points advance with Lucca's.

It is also Lucca's technology that helps advances machinery, as stated by Chrono Cross. By her hands, those hands, the hands of that crazy, purple-haired scientist, Crono's best friend, that things would eventually get a little hectic with Mother Brain and insane machines. She learns how to create incomplete time eggs for goodness sake.

Lucca's hands are in a lot of cookie jars in Chrono Cross. She is the one who finds Kid, and Chrono Cross is the future of Chrono Trigger. Who better then the representation of the future to find her and raise her.

Now we understand why the shades take form of Crono, Lucca, and Marle, the three who come from the present, yet as a trio, they symbolize the world at large, in all senses and times. They are in a sense, the chosen ones. Yet we don't understand why they, the shades are into existence, and what's behind them.

Here is my theory, that they are creations not of the Entity or the planet, but heralds of the DD/Schala/Lavos, defensive linemen in the grand strategy. Lavos is defeated in some timeline, somewhere. This creates the Dream Devourer, and the vortexes. If you are an unstoppable entity, and a cavalcade of six, possibly seven beings from the world you've been feeding on succeeded in taking you down in one timeline, you would have to find a way to crush them. If you can't beat 'em, make clonesof the (arguably) three most powerful, and THEN defeat them.



I posted this in the "New Dungeon Maps" thread. Has anyone seen this text in-game?
Quote
このセカイにワタシはヒトリでいい
アナタはキエなさい!{end}

One of me is all this world needs.
Begone, for all eternity!

{Marle}「戦うしか、ないのね。
  私もここでやられるわけには
  いかない!!{end}

{Marle}: I guess...I guess I have to fight you.
I don't want to be gone for all eternity!

---
アナタさえいなけレバ
キエテしまいナサイ!

You are all that stands in the way...
You must die!

(I don't have the complete Japanese line yet)

{Lucca}: So much for getting along...
Looks like we have some irreconcilable differences
to take care of, doesn't it?

Edit: Adjusted formatting to match game.

They are all that stands in the way after all, of DD's success, at least until it beats them.

However, since this is partly Schala's mind still at work, these may still be partly a trial. In some leftover hope in Schala's mind, though she fused with Lavos, she may hope that the time-traveling troupe can defeat the heralds, and by proxy, the DD. It's by her doing then that when the shades are defeated, they empower the trio, to help them in battling DD. Of course, failure is in the final curtain, and they are made to forget what has happened.


I hope that made some form of sense.

- - -

 So to condense everything I stated, the shades of DV are creations, heralds of DD, seeing as the trio are possibly the symbol of the entity/the planet's hope, the shades are everything DD has learned about them, formed into its personal advance guard. They fuse, and empower the said trio, because Schala partly tries to help her possible saviors in freeing her, though they, as well as her brother fail, and must be made to forget.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #717 on: April 11, 2009, 09:06:55 pm »
Interesting. Although it still leaves that machine that appears with the Crimson Shade without an answer.

Just, what is it's meaning? ...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 09:13:02 pm by Acacia Sgt »

Enker Of The Frost

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #718 on: April 11, 2009, 09:25:06 pm »
I wanted to say that it's DD's answer to Robo as Crimson Shade's support system, but I thought that would have been too far-fetched, even for me. Still, considering it's battle script has attacks like Flashbomb and Recover, reminiscent of Robo's Cure Beam and Explosion attack. Another thought I had was that it was simply some little piece of machinery DD added to Crimson Shade because it's not too far-fetched that all this time Lucca might have been coming up with ideas to make battles easier for her.

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #719 on: April 21, 2009, 12:56:18 am »
The shades were created by FATE as a representation of her three forms. They are Lynx's shadows. The machine was one of FATE's machinations. Believe it.