Author Topic: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)  (Read 63088 times)

FaustWolf

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Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« on: November 22, 2008, 03:41:40 pm »
Hopefully it's not too soon to start picking apart CT:DS' new ending. It answers several questions we've been pondering for years, but poses more, just as a fantastic bonus finale should.

Let's start off with the ending as recorded on Youtube for our viewing pleasure:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6276.0

Question 1: Is this ending canonical?

For no reason other than preference, really, I'd propose that it is not canonical in the sense that Crono & co. actually saw these things, or any of the things in the dimensional vortices for that matter. This ending has no resolution from Crono & co.'s point of view -- there's no Moonlight Parade or discussion of what the heck they just saw, and what they saw was pretty significant. I think Crono & co.  are there just so the player can observe parts of canon that fall outside the scope of Chrono Trigger -- Kato's little treat for us Compendiumites. My main reason for supposing this is that Dalton's revelation is just too hamfisted for Crono & co. to be taken by surprise when the Fall of Guardia really does happen.

A more likely possibility, perhaps, is that Crono & co. really do go through all this dimensional mayhem, but their memories of the Dimensional Vortices and Time's Eclipse are simply erased by Schala. Notice that when Schala teleports the party out of Time's Eclipse, she leaves them with the words, "Dwell not on this." Is it possible she's literally commanding them not to think about what they just saw? And what better way to do that then zap a few neurons?

Question 2: There are two Maguses (Magi?), one I'll call Present Magus (the one in the party) and another I'll call Future Magus. What is the origin of Future Magus? How did he make it into Time's Eclipse?

When asking what the origin of "Future Magus" is, I should say, rather, at what point during Magus' experiences did he reach Time's Eclipse? There's conflicting evidence on this matter. First, he appears in the Prophet's cloak, which would lead us to believe this is Magus as he was as a member of Queen Zeal's court.

On the other hand, the Magus in Queen Zeal's court had a far harder edge to his personality. Compendium discussion has long pointed in the direction that Magus at that point in time was utterly bent on destroying Lavos and everything else was of secondary priority -- even saving Schala. The extra Magus we see in Time's Eclipse, however, is clearly consumed with the mission of saving her from a horrid fate. Therefore, I propose on the basis of Future Magus' personality that he is, indeed, Future Magus, one whose character has further developed since we last saw him step into the Millennial Fair portal during the Beyond Time ending. It was at that moment that Magus' quest to save Schala began, and not before.

However, the matter of the Prophet's cloak still bothers me and leaves this open to further speculation.


Question 3: Is Future Magus emo? Has Masato Kato resorted to emo of all things?

The question as I phrase it is silly, but Magus' final response to seeing his sister's fate reveals a serious personality change. Never before has Magus just thrown down the towel and given up on something. Magus as we've known him would thump his head against a wall until either it or his cranium collapses, but he would never commit existential suicide when confronted with a serious challenge. Both he and the gurus are resourceful -- there's got to be a way around the problem at hand, and indeed Belthasar proves us correct in Chrono Cross. Now, it's possible that Future Magus' experiences have instilled a fatalist attitude within him. However, I would like to propose an alternate interpretation of the ending for what it's worth.

As examined in Question 1, it is possible that Schala (or the Dream Devourer) has the capacity to erase memories. Could it be that it is Schala who erases Future Magus' memories and not Future Magus himself? We must pick apart the following lines:

Quote
Magus: Hmph. If this is to be the way of things,
  then let me abandon all that was and fade away as well.
  Should a part of me even then remain,
  then perhaps that will be the birth of something
  new -- something with greater meaning than all this.

Next thing we see is Magus wandering around the Zenan Mainland (and it is the mainland being shown, because that's where Guile is from according to his status screen in CC) in an amnesiac state.

Magus never comes right out and says, "I'm going to erase my memories." He says, "...let me abandon all that was and fade away..."

I thought it was obvious at first that Future Magus was somehow destroying his own memories, actively crumpling them up and tossing them into some mental wastebasket. However, he does not use the word "destroy." He uses the word abandon. So let's examine the meaning of that word. Although it's incredibly trite, I'll consult Webster's dictionary:

1 a: to give up to the control or influence of another person or agent
1 b: to give up with the intent of never again claiming a right or interest in <abandon property>
3: to withdraw protection, support, or help from <he abandoned his family>
4: to give (oneself) over unrestrainedly
Abandon suggests that the thing or person left may be helpless without protection <abandoned children>.
Synonyms see in addition relinquish

The word "destroy" has an active connotation; the word abandon, on the other hand, has a passive connotation. He is not destroying his memories -- he is yielding them, relinquishing them...perhaps to the Dream Devourer's memory-annihilating powers.

This does not resolve the "emo" difficulty entirely, because Magus is still resigned and defeated. However, interpreted in this light the ending at least shows that Future Magus doesn't commit "existential suicide" as I had initially thought.


Question 4: Has the Time Devourer been renamed the Dream Devourer, or is this a transitional entity?

From the looks of it, the Dream Devourer is a transitional entity. Schala's hair is still blue, indicating that this...thing...hasn't had enough time to drain all her power. Also, the Lavos part of the being doesn't look a thing like the Time Devourer does in Chrono Cross -- the Time Devourer's Lavos component is smaller, more agile. This may be merely the first stage in  the Time Devourer's evolution.

Question 5 (courtesy of Dark Serge): Is the Dream Devourer even in the DBT? Or is it yet another new dimension? I.e., has the Darkness Beyond Time been renamed Time's Eclipse, or is this a transitional existence?

The name "Time's Eclipse" literally means...well, I'm going back to good ol' Webster for a definition of "eclipse."

1.
a. The partial or complete obscuring, relative to a designated observer, of one celestial body by another.
b. The period of time during which such an obscuration occurs.
2. A temporary or permanent dimming or cutting off of light.
3.
a. A fall into obscurity or disuse; a decline: "A composer . . . often goes into eclipse after his death and never regains popularity" Time.
b. A disgraceful or humiliating end; a downfall: Revelations of wrongdoing helped bring about the eclipse of the governor's career.


That probably muddles things further though. I'm not really sure how to proceed on this one.  :oops:

But what say you all?

~~~

ZeaLitY Questions

5. What's the nature of the new ending? Is it an outside vision of canon where Crono's actual trip isn't canonical but what he witnesses is? Does it really take place in the context of CT?

6. Postulate ways that Dalton could have achieved the Fall of Guardia.

7. What the hell is the Lost Sanctum? A dream emanation from the Dream Devourer, or somehow a cause of the Black Omen? (The Black Omen's creation takes place soon after Schala meets her end and starts merging, of course, depending on how this is viewed through Time Error, since it also depends on Lavos to die, and he hasn't yet in that point of CT's story)

8. What's the nature of the Reptite artifacts like the Prismastones and Dragon's Tear? What about the antagonist monsters who plan to kill these Reptites?

9. What's the canonicity of the Dimensional Vortex dungeons and Crono, Marle, and Lucca's fights with their inner selves? Why would those be in there for those characters and not the other ones?

10. Do you know the Muffin Man?

11. If we believe that the Dream Devourer is a pre-evolutionary form of the Time Devourer, the question remains -- how did Lavos survive to merge with her?

12. Can we assume that Magus's wake-up to Schala is the moment Belthasar took advantage of when planning for Schala to be awake long enough to create Kid? (This means Crono's presence pre-Lavos is non-canonical)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 07:30:29 am by ZeaLitY »

Dark Serge

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 03:57:55 pm »
Very interesting.

But first of all: Even if they knew about Dalton and his scheme, it probably wouldn't matter. I see two options here:

A-They thought "What the heck- this is the guy we defeated like 3/4 times already, he poses no threat to us whatsoever" and they happily live on. Dalton, being underestimated, strikes with unimaginable force and somehow destroys Guardia.

B-They did know and were cautious, made several preparations, perhaps even calling Glenn to their timeline (disappearance of the Masamune), but it was still not enough. Dalton had gathered an army stronger then Guardia, and Guardia still fell.

Secondly, if this "new" Magus is the playable Magus but then in the future, would that mean if Magus goes with Chrono & other party member into the DBT, and gets sent away by Schala, he comes there later for the second time, but this time in the role of "new" Magus?

And another interesting question, is the Dream Devourer even in the DBT? Or is it yet another new dimension? I know they called it Time's Eclipse but that's basically the same as saying DBT.

Captain B

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 04:03:13 pm »
 What drives Magus?



     Two things we know of, Lavos and Schala. pretty simple.




     Lavos: Well, he kicked his ass. woot. Time to go find Schala

     Schala: finds her but can't save her. She tells him she appreciates his work, but that he should just try to forget about her. It sounds to me like they're trying to make their peace with each other. Also, she calls him Janus. Take that, half of the "search for schala" fanfics out there!


     Magus is not emotional, and doesn't take much to heart. But he does take something to heart. These are the only two elements that can really do that. And fact of the matter is, here they are, and here is the blow they inflict.

     What is their effect? Magus gets a moment with his sister to make peace, she... ahem... encourages him...  to move on, and he leaves. Magus, after this, basically says "huh maybe she's right...  well, I won't remember her saying it anyways, but if I somehow regain my memory, I'll take that into consideration. For now though, I'm gonna help myself stop thinking about her...  about any of the stuff I've done...    not like she's going anywhere for awhile..."

mav

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 04:06:19 pm »
I agree wholeheartedly that the Dream Devourer is possibly the first or second stage of an evolutionary process: we know that the Time Devourer was an evolved creature:
Quote from: Lucca, in Chrono Cross
  As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.
   Filled with the hatred and
   sadness of Lavos, half of
   Schala's mind became set on
   destroying all of existence.
   Yet at the same time, the
   other half of her mind
   desired to save the universe
   and to be rescued herself.
What we're seeing is likely the early stage: Schala still has some consciousness and the beast itself isn't in complete control. My theory is that since this is such an early stage in the evolution of this creature, Schala may have some control over it and perhaps this gave Schala the ability to erase memories.

As for Magus, this is where the confusion comes in, we don't know who this Future Magus is, or how he got there. Is it possible that he followed Schala? If he's truly bent on finding her, this may be the accomplishment of such a feat...so perhaps this is Magus from some other time line? One in which he was able to catch Schala directly after the Ocean Palace incident? The following quotes seem to shed some light on that:
Quote from: CTDS
Voice: Here, Lavos is no more. This is the future in which we've defeated him.
Quote from: CTDS
Magus: Whether that is the future of the world from which you've come, I do not know.
There are as many worlds as there are potentialities.
Does this Magus even know Crono and co? I can't tell.

Perhaps I should play CTDS before I make an attempt at theorizing...

Eket

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 06:59:21 pm »
I'm not really very good at all this theoretical stuff. Time travel, alternate universes, dimensions etc it tends to just go over my head. It took me a long time to actually understand the events related to Trigger and Cross, especially Cross. I still don't understand the ending of it, and what Schala meant. I've read the articles about it many times, i just don't get it.

Having said that. Does this new Canon material in anyway tell us what the fates of Crono, Marle and Lucca are? Can we form any new theories of their fates concerning the fall of Guardia? Does their momentary happy ending still happen? Or are they even more doomed now? I just don't understand it, all this stuff goes way over my head. Alone i will never figure it out...

The new material related to Magus is even weirder. Is he Guile now? It took me half a day of reading the compendium to understand that Guile could absolutely not be Magus. And now he is? Talk about a massive mindfuck o.o

FaustWolf

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 07:40:55 pm »
Kato didn't even know Guile was Magus until sometime after Chrono Cross -- he specifically stated in an interview that Magus was removed from Cross because he couldn't possibly tell Magus' story and deal with 40-odd other characters simulaneously. I think this is Kato's way of explaining what happened to Magus while opening up the possibility for a Magus-centric sequel.

Dark Serge

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 07:59:43 pm »
As I understand it, Chrono & crew defeat Lavos, then Dream Devourer, then 5 years later, anno 1005 AD Dalton attacks with a massive army and destroys Guardia. Chrono and Marle either die or escape. Lucca had an orphanga with several children around that time but it was destroyed by Lynx, not by Dalton. It's impossible to say when that happened.

As for Robo, he worked with Belthasar on Project Kid and served as the Prometheus circuit in the FATE master computer.

Ayla and Glenn... No idea what could have happened to them. They probably lived out their own timelines and eventually died of age.

Eket

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2008, 08:11:45 pm »
As I understand it, Chrono & crew defeat Lavos, then Dream Devourer, then 5 years later, anno 1005 AD Dalton attacks with a massive army and destroys Guardia. Chrono and Marle either die or escape. Lucca had an orphanga with several children around that time but it was destroyed by Lynx, not by Dalton. It's impossible to say when that happened.

As for Robo, he worked with Belthasar on Project Kid and served as the Prometheus circuit in the FATE master computer.

Ayla and Glenn... No idea what could have happened to them. They probably lived out their own timelines and eventually died of age.

And this just completely does not make sense anymore. Crono, Marle and Lucca know what Dalton is planning now. It would be foolish to just brush it aside, sure they bested him in combat like 3 times. But that also means he returned twice despite those odds. Doesn't sit right with me, that Crono, Marle and Lucca completely ignore it when they get back to 1000AD.

I've put some thought into that. You fight Dalton in 1000AD's new dimensional thing. I haven't read anywhere that Dalton can be encountered in the other timezones. Lavos is defeated and the timegates dissapear, right? Sure there's the timedevourer now, but CC didn't have timegates either. The timegates are gone. Dalton has to be in 1000AD and starts building the Porre army at that time. Probably with Elements and advanced technology. I just can't understand why Crono and Co would ignore Dalton now.

They don't need to beat the entire Porre army. They just need to defeat Dalton before he fulfills his plan. In 600AD they didn't fight Magus' entire army, they went covert on his ass and snuck in. DarkSerge, I know you absolutely love Dalton and his involvement with Guardia. Happy for you it's now part of Canon, but it raises more questions than it actually answers. Which is probably what Kato wants... but he really took the easy way out with this new material. Magus gets amnesia. Come on even i can suck something more interesting out of my thumb.

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 08:16:22 pm »
The whole thing with the Dream Devourer could be easier to understand if it wasn't for the party appearing there. If they weren't, the whole thing could have gone like this:

1) Lavos is defeated.
2) Dream Devourer is born.
3) Magus somehow founds his way to where it is.
4) Magus attempts to kill it, but he can't.
5) Schala sends him away, where he decides to wipe out his memory.
6) Magus appears in the forest with amnesia.

From there, I'm not sure, but it could work if only Crono and the others doesn't appear there. Maybe, just maybe, going there is optional, but the events happening in there definetly not. Just a thought.

Even so, I don't like that he got amnesia in the end. If he could have only decided to just try again, and found a way to contact Belthasar, but no, not always things go as you want them.

Dark Serge

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 08:47:37 pm »
As I understand it, Chrono & crew defeat Lavos, then Dream Devourer, then 5 years later, anno 1005 AD Dalton attacks with a massive army and destroys Guardia. Chrono and Marle either die or escape. Lucca had an orphanga with several children around that time but it was destroyed by Lynx, not by Dalton. It's impossible to say when that happened.

As for Robo, he worked with Belthasar on Project Kid and served as the Prometheus circuit in the FATE master computer.

Ayla and Glenn... No idea what could have happened to them. They probably lived out their own timelines and eventually died of age.

And this just completely does not make sense anymore. Crono, Marle and Lucca know what Dalton is planning now. It would be foolish to just brush it aside, sure they bested him in combat like 3 times. But that also means he returned twice despite those odds. Doesn't sit right with me, that Crono, Marle and Lucca completely ignore it when they get back to 1000AD.

I've put some thought into that. You fight Dalton in 1000AD's new dimensional thing. I haven't read anywhere that Dalton can be encountered in the other timezones. Lavos is defeated and the timegates dissapear, right? Sure there's the timedevourer now, but CC didn't have timegates either. The timegates are gone. Dalton has to be in 1000AD and starts building the Porre army at that time. Probably with Elements and advanced technology. I just can't understand why Crono and Co would ignore Dalton now.

They don't need to beat the entire Porre army. They just need to defeat Dalton before he fulfills his plan. In 600AD they didn't fight Magus' entire army, they went covert on his ass and snuck in. DarkSerge, I know you absolutely love Dalton and his involvement with Guardia. Happy for you it's now part of Canon, but it raises more questions than it actually answers. Which is probably what Kato wants... but he really took the easy way out with this new material. Magus gets amnesia. Come on even i can suck something more interesting out of my thumb.

As you see multiple times, Dalton is a clever one at getting away. Besides, he could have went into hiding. He probably indeed used elements, and perhaps even the Sun Stone and other artifacts to boost the power of his army. Yes, they knew his plot. Yes, they probably tried to find him and defeat him (but apparently failed), and yes they probably prepared for battle. Bottom line is it just wasn't enough. Dalton really is no idiot. He can control Golems, and as you see in the Vortex he has a large selection of new powerful spells. He's also quite good with technology and engineering. Despite their efforts, Dalton was just stronger in the end.

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 09:22:03 pm »
Very sneaky of them to include lines that let the fans imagine their own fantasy timeline where Kato didn't control it. NINJA BATMAN FOREVER, AMNESIAC FOP NEVER! Er, uh... that refers to Magil and Guile, respectively.

As for the Dalton thing, I'm just pissed off I was RIGHT. He's even hard to take seriously in the video, for crying out loud!
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 11:02:09 pm by FaustWolf »

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2008, 09:33:07 pm »
Interestingly enough, during the earliest plot drafting phase of CC:DBT, a fan project taking shape on a hidden forum...somewhere, the project team briefly examined the possibility that Schala blew away Magus' memories when he had finally succeeded in accessing the Darkness Beyond Time. I was discussing this with a project member named Satoh, and that does rhyme with "Kato."

Hmm...

And Dalton delivering a dire prophecy to Johnny's theme music was a bit ridiculous. No wonder the CT crew couldn't take the guy seriously.

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 09:35:23 pm »
Very sneaky of them to include lines that let the fans imagine their own fantasy timeline where Kato didn't control it. NINJA BATMAN FOREVER, AMNESIAC FOP NEVER! Er, uh... that refers to Magil and Guile, respectively.

As for the Dalton thing, I'm just pissed off I was RIGHT. He's even hard to take seriously in the video, for crying out loud!

Hahahah omg dude. Saved on three different flashdrives for justice of the world.

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 09:44:07 pm »
I cant take any analysis that says Magus is Guile seriously.

Clearly Guile is reminiscent of Magus, but no more than in the way the Glenn is of Frog, and Leah is of Ayla. There is NO evidence that they are the same person. The fact that Schala does nothing to acknowledge Guile when the Time Devourer is defeated proves it, at least for me. Also, clearly Magus is who she is saying she will search for at the end of Cross. She knows where Serge is, why would she have to search for him?

Quote
Kato didn't even know Guile was Magus until sometime after Chrono Cross

what do you mean he didnt know? he knows exactly what is going on. He has never said that Guile is Magus, all he has said is that Magus was originally going to be in the game, and that he was replaced by Guile because Kato didnt want to further complicate the story.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 09:47:44 pm by art_garfunkel »

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS New Ending Analysis (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 09:53:59 pm »
(Secretly suspects art_garfunkel is actually Masato Kato in disguise).

Sorry, I'm just paranoid. :D

I've actually gone so far as to check the Compendium member list for users with the names "Masato" and "Kato," but there were none.