CT:DS

[Chrono'99]

Okay, I just played through most chapters using the debug room and saw the ending. I *think* we can make CE fits with the new CT DS canon if we change a few details. I'm not sure if this is the kind of changes that qualifies as "major" or not, but I figured the earlier we discuss this, the easier we can find a solution (or agree to not change the game).

What I'm assuming about CT DS:

• The information given in the Dimensional Vortices is canon: Dalton is responsible for the Fall of Guardia and Guile is an alternate Magus (this last point doesn't really concern CE I guess).
• ...but Crono's party don't remember these events: either Schala erased their memories when she teleported them out, or they are past versions of Crono's party so they get Time-Bastardized at some point (see some of the CT DS discussion topics), or they never actually traveled to the Vortices. We really don't have to explain this point in CE.
• As far as CE is concerned: at the beginning of the game Schala hasn't merged with Lavos yet. When she does (in Chapter 17), we'll talk about the Dream Devourer in dialogues rather than Time Devourer.

So, considering these points, the change I propose for CE would be to... add 3 years to each Entity era. 64999995 BC, 11995 BC, etc., and most importantly, 1005 AD. This probably shouldn't change much as far as dialogues are concerned.

The important result however is that this makes Chapter 15 (The Glare of Midnight) the actual Fall of Guardia. The kingdom is attacked, King Guardia dies...I think Zeality even called this part a "mini-Fall of Guardia" at one point. Dialogues should be easily adaptable, so the only major thing we have to change is that the party fails to get the Masamune back in Chapter 14, and we have to add both Kasmir and Dalton in the Chapter 15 attack on Guardia. Porre, Kasmir, Dalton, King Zeal...that's a "Dream Team" of villains; Guardia's defeat is easy to understand this way. To fit with Chrono Cross canon, the Masamune has to disappear here (lost sight of in the confusion of the battles or something). Kasmir and Dalton escape with King Zeal so that Chapter 16 onwards, including the ending, remain the same.

With this, we comply with CT DS and depict the Fall of Guardia onscreen in a highly dramatic way. So...thoughts? Is there any hole in this plot arrangement? Is it feasible in time (I guess that may depend on me too if I code this part)?

[Chrono'99]

...Aww, this change makes an inconsistency with the Masamune actually, since it's meant to be used on the Frozen Flame in Chapter 17. The change also makes the Middle Ages not revert to its original state also. I guess the party DOES retrieve the Masamune from Kasmir and put it back in history, but Kasmir still participates in the Fall of Guardia and forcibly takes the sword from Frog's hands there.

I guess we could have the party use a different weapon in Chapter 17 rather than the Masamune. Melchior could give them a rainbow weapon (sword, katana?) instead. This would tie up with the Chrono Cross concept of planet energy (Einlanzer) vs. Lavos energy (Masamune...which is really corrupted Dreamstone).

To sum up:

Chapter 14 (no change): The party retrieves the Masamune from Kasmir and puts it back in the past.
Chapter 15: Fall of Guardia happens. Porre, led by Dalton, and Medina, led by Kasmir, attack Guardia. The two were brought there by King Zeal. Kasmir forcibly takes the party's Masamune (Masa and Mune are put to sleep also). King Zeal kills King Guardia and the villains escape.
Chapter 17: Melchior gives the party a rainbow weapon (or whatever) to use on the Frozen Flame. The plan still fails like in the current plot.

I don't know how this sounds to you all, but I believe this doesn't require that much work in terms of coding and time. This change is worth it IMO.

[FaustWolf]

I'm just an observer here, but I say go for the gusto. I'll help in whatever way I can.

[Daniel Krispin]

I would recommend not trying to retcon anything. Just keep what you have, call it an alternate idea, and leave it at that. CE flows well, and I'd hate to see that broken by just trying to fit in with what SE canon. It speaks of more surety and cohesiveness to stand by what's done.

Or that's my take, anyway.

[Chrono'99]

Well, I just think it's a good and simple occasion to enhance the plot and fit in the canon without much changes. It does add cohesiveness because it blends the Kasmir, Dalton, and Masamune/Fall of Guardia story arcs all together. It just enhances something that already exists; it doesn't introduce brand new elements or story arcs (that would break cohesiveness, at this point in development).

Instead of being a twist in the ending (current version), the Fall of Guardia becomes an integral part of the plot, with its causes and consequences all flowing logically and seamlessly from the other events of the game. That's something huge in terms of impact on the player. And yet nothing is tacked on.

There really is no "dumbing down" of the plot involved. It's all beneficial. In fact, it's the kind of change we could make even if CT DS didn't gave us a new canon.

[Agent 12]

I kind of liked the big twist that we gave at the ending with Frog/Magus causing the fall.  We also have alot of plot points going towards Marle simply not being ready to rule (before her reptite dimension, her flame dungeon, some other dialogue point to this, and of course the ending).  I'm not really sure what we'll do for the ending.

I suppose if the majority of people want to change it that's fine.   That being said I always looked at this as a fan game (not canon) and I think our ending is awesome... it has a nice twist at the end, and I really liked the people of truce rebelling on Marle scene.

--JP

[Chrono'99]

We can still have the Truce vs. Marle scene.

In Chapter 15, Porre is victorious and decides that Guardia will be a protectorate of Porre, which means Marle may remain a Queen as long as she obeys Porre. She still gives her powers to the Chancellor as in the current version.

The ending is also essentially the same: the people of Truce still complain because Marle is not competent. She gave all her powers to the Chancellor even though the two are supposed to govern together; basically the Chancellor has twice as much work to do as he should. Even if Marle ruled with the Chancellor she'd still be incompetent, so the villagers say they'd rather have Porre govern directly. And that's the political Fall of Guardia, after the military fall.

[FaustWolf]

From a fan observer's standpoint, with those tweaks it all seems utterly amazing and perfectly in line with canon as it now stands.

[Agent 12]

And the Magus/Frog Scene(s)? Crono going to Zenan Bridge and seeing Porre advancing? 

--JP

Edit: I guess if it was a planned rebellion the Zenan bridge can be kept? 

[Chrono'99]

Yeah, the bridge scene doesn't clash so it can be kept.

The Magus/Frog scene...I don't know. It feels kind of unnecessarily shocking if there's already Porre, Medina, Kasmir and evil Masamune, Dalton, and King Zeal all attacking. Shocking occurrences are good when they advance the plot, but if there's already all those villains attacking, this particular occurrence becomes kind of unnecessary. The lack of "necessity" of this event also means that it doesn't contradict anything and can be kept though, but I can foresee a lot of players saying "What was that for? There was no reason for that!" (soldiers and villagers were already being killed by the villains, etc.). Personally I'd remove it. But I just came back and I don't want to step on anyone's toe, so I'm okay if people want to keep this point.

[nightmare975]

What if we change Chapter 15 to when Magus and Frog battle Guardia?

We could have them believe that Zeal and Company are Chrono and Company. They got through a dungeon reminiscent of Guardia castle and when they kill "King Zeal", the map changes into Guardia and they just killed King Guardia.

Might be too much though.

[Agent 12]

The Magus/Frog scene...I don't know. It feels kind of unnecessarily shocking if there's already Porre, Medina, Kasmir and evil Masamune, Dalton, and King Zeal all attacking. Shocking occurrences are good when they advance the plot, but if there's already all those villains attacking, this particular occurrence becomes kind of unnecessary. The lack of "necessity" of this event also means that it doesn't contradict anything and can be kept though, but I can foresee a lot of players saying "What was that for? There was no reason for that!" (soldiers and villagers were already being killed by the villains, etc.). Personally I'd remove it. But I just came back and I don't want to step on anyone's toe, so I'm okay if people want to keep this point.

Haha well it was YOUR shocking occurrence so I think you have the right to step on some toes I really liked it but it definitely loses it's appeal if we add the rest of the bad guys...it's definitely not necessary and would only be there for the shock....

We could have them believe that Zeal and Company are Chrono and Company. They got through a dungeon reminiscent of Guardia castle and when they kill "King Zeal", the map changes into Guardia and they just killed King Guardia.

It'd definitely would have to move to the new chapter.  I dont forsee us adding a whole new dungeon though .  Looks like it's getting the boot if we make the changes.


I'm definitely bias about everything here since I coded it so I guess I should probably stop commenting.  Maybe i'm not thinking clearly.... 

--JP

NOTE:  One of the things that I really liked about the Magus/Frog thing is it showed how powerful Kasmir's illusiions can be.  It's kind of like heroes when you realize parkmans mind reading ability is more of a mind controlling ability.

[Agent 12]

O.K. I have a bit of a compromise and it solves some of the problems I thought about with the solution you mentioned.


Keep the Magus/Frog Scene, however we add dalton to the end of it.  He then steals the Masamune from Frog at that point.  It happens off screen from the guardia death scene.  Right before Zeal kills guardia we flash to the forest to show Magus/Frog destroying everything.  Dalton comes in at the end and steals the masamune.  I think the picture shown in the ending has the "shadowy figure" thought to be dalton outside anyways.  We can add marle being shocked that Porre so easily got past the defenses and someone say something along the lines that they dont know what happens but they got demolished.

Reasons:
  a)  I worked really hard to make that scene.  I really liked how it turned out and I'm stubborn
  b)  You are not guaranteed to have Frog in your party in that chapter (this is one of the problem i mentioned above) I feel like it would corny to have frog (but noone else) burst in just for that scene with this tweak the masamune is stolen from future frog in the forest
  c)  It eases the programming by spreading out what happens in various events (this is one of the problem i mentioned above).  There's a good chance that Zeal, Dalton, Kasmir, Guardia, and the masamune won't load together.  I haven't tested it yet but i know for a fact that ozzie,flea, slash and kasmir won't load together. 
  d) Since the masamune stolen is from the future does this fix the problem with chapter 17? Present frog still has his masamune
  e) The player is going to be like what the hell is going on for a few chapters and then it gets resolved quite nicely in the ending

--JP

[FaustWolf]

It just occurred to me, you're dealing with the Fall of Guardia in a pre-El Nido timeline, correct? I.e., the time crash hasn't happened yet. The way Dalton's threat is presented in CT:DS, he's in a Dimensional Vortex -- his leadership of Porre certainly needs to take place in the post-time crash timeline of Chrono Cross, but not all dimensions. I don't think it's too far-fetched to say that Dalton's conquering Guardia was facilitated by Elements mined in El Nido, and seeing as El Nido doesn't exist in the timelines you're dealing with, you guys aren't beholden to canon in this respect after all.

Now that everyone's expecting to see the Fall of Guardia via Dalton, Crimson Echoes could really toss a curveball at them by keeping with the former plan, though some clarification of how CE's dimension(s) differ from Chrono Cross' might be in order.

[Chrono'99]

Dalton utters his threat before the Time Crash occurs, so his threat exists regardless of Project Kid. You're right that we're not strictly beholden to canon, but we can fit the game in the canon without changing much of what we've done, so why not? As for tossing curveballs, the fact that Crono and Marle survive the invasion at all will probably be a good surprise for everyone. Also the invasion here is part of a grand scheme of things involving multiple story arcs from various eras, rather than being simply Dalton deciding to attack Guardia on a whim.

Concerning reason (b): Frog doesn't have to be in your party; we can have the Masamune appear to help the party whether Frog is there or not. I thought about this but I forgot to mention it in the previous post for some reason: Guardia is being invaded, so Masa and Mune show up and say they'll help defend the place because they kind of owe this to the party (having them come from Chronopolis on their own is less convoluted than having Frog showing up).

Concerning the programming (c), we can just spread the villains in different screens. I can code all these changes if they're greenlighted.

Concerning (a), the scene can still be one of the New Game+ endings... er, seems like we don't have these planned, do we?

Wait, it can be part of Frog's Frozen Flame nightmare. After fake Cyrus dies, the Frog slaughter scene plays out with Mystics instead of Bugs, and then it's revealed that he's slaughtering humans (the philosophical meaning is that Mystics and humans are the same...they're both living, sentient beings). Obviously it has to play without Magus helping Frog, but we can have Cyrus (wounded, not dead) instead of him. How does it sound?