Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

[razor's edge]

Magus's shadow spells don't necessarily sound evil, though-- Dark Bomb, Dark Mist, Black Hole, and Dark Matter. The last two are scientific terms even. Dark Bomb sounds a lot less evil than, say, Evil Emanation.

[GreenGannon]

According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.

Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).

As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).

Lavos can't talk. How do we know that those aren't the names Crono and co gave those attacks? They have a bias toward Lavos already.

Since Lavos doesn't exist anymore in CC, the Flame must be connected to the Time Devourer.

How do we know that the emotions of the Time Devourer are those of Lavos? In that state he is bonded to Schala, who lives in remorse, which is a negative emotion.

[sarua]

Magus's shadow spells don't necessarily sound evil, though-- Dark Bomb, Dark Mist, Black Hole, and Dark Matter. The last two are scientific terms even. Dark Bomb sounds a lot less evil than, say, Evil Emanation.

If weak magician cast`s fire spell it would be called simple fire, but if stronger magician casts stronger fire spell it would be called hellfire or inferno. So second magician is evil? Imho same goes for Lavos attacks.

[V_Translanka]

Ah, don't be h8rs. Just because something is dark, it doesn't make it 'evil'. I mean, black people aren't evil, right? It's dark because it's Shadow and it's a bomb (or it's mist) because that's what it is. Neither are evil. I don't even think that spell names determine who is or isn't evil. It's the user that determines that.

It's odd to note though that Lavos's final form uses the ultimate water magic, Hexagon Mist (i believe it's called). I think that Lavos simply uses the best magics there is because he's all powerful. I don't think he relies on any one magic, as I said, he even uses wussy water magic

And another thing...Let's not make this a discussion about whether or not Lavos is evil...I'm pretty sure there's another thread for that...But, whatever, I guess...

[SilentMartyr]

Yea we have strayed off topic a tad bit

So have we come to any conclusions so far?

[razor's edge]

Yea we have strayed off topic a tad bit

So have we come to any conclusions so far?

Back on page 3 we had pretty much concluded that the Masamune affected Magus due to Frog's will. Then we drifted faaar off-topic when wondering how the workings of the Masamune of CC fit into all of it.

[SilentMartyr]

That's right. But what do we make of the legend?

[Oath]

Alright, I just went through and fought Lavos to test a few things:

1. When Lavos adopts the form of Magus, the Masamune also lowers his magic defense. I think this would probably detract a bit from the idea that Frog's will is influencing. I suppose you could infer that it possibly brings up painful memories from fighting a mimicked form of Magus, but at this point he's been travelling with Magus for a while, it seems sort of odd that this event would trigger it and nothing else.

2. Lavos MUST be speaking in some capacity. During the fight, you get the messages you did from fighting the Heckran like "Go ahead! Try and attack!". I doubt anyone in the party is saying it.

[SilentMartyr]

Lavos is just mimicing(sp?) Magus, so all the same effects that work on Magus would have to work on Lavos.

[Zaperking]

According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.

Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).

As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).

He is master of magic so he probably knows every spell and attack which can cause magical damage. From the game we can see that magus is strongest in magic, maybe it`s because he is using shadow magic which maybe is strongest of all magics and because this magic is believed to be evil it`s spell names are evilish. So if shadow is trongest wouldn`t it be logical for Lavos to use strongest magic?

Lavos isn't the master of any magic. He's just a leecher off the planet. My theory is that while he's sucking away at the Earths energy, he is also sucking the elements. In this case, he would have transfered the elements to the humans around 10,000bc if they came in contact with the frozen flame. These elements were stronger than the CC elements and were acctually magic. Hence, everything Lavos gave to the Zealians were the planets gifts without slow evolution.

The elements of CC are from Dinopolis which was pulled back like Chronopolis was.


Back to the Masamune.

I believe that the Masamune was turned evil... By Frog. Why? Look:

1)Frog was giving off hate emotions towards Magus, this could have been absorbed by the sword
2) The sword when attacking Magus could have been absorbing Magus' hate for Lavos and Frog, not to mention his own dark magic and feelings.
3) You'd think that a big evil hateful ghost that empowered the Masamune would leave behind a trail of evil feelings into the sword, especially if the hate feelings have build up over 400 years.

This is how I believe the sword came to become evil. The only counterbalance I see are these:

1) The sword only remained good until Frog died and the quest was over, and Frog made up with Magus at the North Cliff.

2) Frog kills Magus, Sword absorbs heaps of evil energy but since Masa and Mune are awake they are controlling the sword with Frogs good intentions?

It's even mentioned in CC that Masa and Mune were asleep while they shouldn't have been, and that Doreen was pis*ed because they forgot her when they fell asleep with the blade, so thats why they all joined together to make the Mastermune.

I'm sleepy now since its 12.26am and my brain hurts x.x

[V_Translanka]

Since CT was pre-Elements though, I never really thought of them as a real, viable source...I always figured it was Dreamstone that Lavos was absorbing, since all of the crazy whackiness between it absorbing Lavos and Lavos absorbing the earth and yadda yadda...It seems like Dreamstone is obviously a two-way street for power absorbtion (sp?).

[razor's edge]

On the Lavos-mimicry of boss Magus--

Think of boss Magus's magic shield as a 'locked door'.  So as a 'locked door', it would mean that the Masamune is the 'key' to unlock that 'door'. So when Lavos mimics boss Magus, Lavos mimics the 'locked door'.  Now, if you have a 'locked door' on one side, and a copy of the 'locked door' on the other side, it would make sense that the 'key' would be able to unlock both 'doors'. Also consider that at this point in the game Frog is the master of the Masamune, so I don't think he'd need his anger to drain the boss Magus magic shield anymore. Like a kind of "I've done it before, I can do it again" kinda thing.

[DeweyisOverrated]

(skips reading through all 6 pages of stuff).

"The sword embodies the dreams and (something something)"... whatever Masa/Mune said to you in the Ocean Palace.  also, how it brings out the bad side in you in CC.

I've always understood that it affects Magus because Frog is so bent-up on avanging Cyrus' death, that the sword reflects that, naturally towards Magus.

[V_Translanka]

Yup, and if you'd stopped to read just a tad of those 6 pages...You would have read that mucho obvioso statement...One main thing people have stated to counter said statement though, has been the Masamune's effect on the Mammon Machine and also on Lavos.

[doug_protocols]

Hi, new here, I am quite amazed at this thread.  My friends and I always knew the answer to this since we were kids and I am astounded you all are throwing up such contrived inventions*.

The answer is that Magus is protected by the amulet Schala gave him.  The amulet is made of the same material as the mammon machine (this is said by someone in Zeal I believe).  No brainer.


* ONE.  One person in a buried post mentioned this, and was promptly ignored.