Author Topic: Magus's Weakness to the Masamune  (Read 20517 times)

sarua

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2005, 07:31:40 am »
Quote
I was just kidding about the spellcheck thingy sarua...I can read people's location tags...Lithuania? Isn't that in Europe or something? Who knows? What am I? A geography major or something? No. No, I am most certainly not. And yes, razor's edge, I'm not a spelling major either


You asked if i`m foreign so i answered. Yes Lithuania is in Europe.

Quote
And, I dunno, sarua, I didn't see it as you were having problems with the back-and-forth, I thought you were saying things about how other people just wouldn't give in to the other side of the arguement...Perhaps I misread. Missread? Miss Red? Y'know what I mean.


yes i know what you mean :) Well imho it`s same thing. You don`t agree with arguments which are good and you ask again same thing and again.

P.S. While using word "you" in my last sentence i wasn`t talking about you V_Translanka.

Chrono'99

  • Guru of Reason Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3605
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2005, 11:19:18 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?

Perhaps Glenn got caught into a huge and unknown mess, like Crono (possibly) after Chrono Trigger. You know, something big like the events of Crimson Echoes, or some stuff only Kato could have thought about when he imagined the Fall of Guardia.

This is just a guess, but maybe this is what Lucca refers to in her letter to Kid :
Quote from: Lucca
Perhaps you already know... or perhaps you yourself are also now caught up in some historic crisis as a result of all this. But, anyway... A long time ago, we -- my friends and I, that is -- changed the future in order to save our planet from being devoured by Lavos, a monster from some unknown planet. We still feel proud of the role we played in saving our world, and in how we were so freely able to change the flow of time. But sometimes I think of the darker side of what we did...

GreenGannon

  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 460
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2005, 12:31:45 pm »
I, myself, think that Masa and Mune were able to keep the sword pure from Lavos. But when he became the TD, I think the the strain became too much for them.

Faulce

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2005, 02:15:24 pm »
Quote from: V_Translanka
And, Faulce, that all makes sense, but I was wondering then, where does the happenings of the Masamune in CC fit into that?

I always thought that the Masamune in CC was the Masamune created in 2 seconds by the Mammon Machine in the Ocean Palace, but I just read somewhere else that because of Time Bastard, Frog's Masamune and the evil Masamune must be the same one.  I'm not really sure how to answer this question, but let me give a few differences between the Masamune in CT and the Masamune in CC.
1) In CT, the Masamune is always in the same time period as Frog
2) In CC, Frog isnt even alive anymore.
3) In CT, Masa and Mune are awake - In CC, they are asleep.
4) So, The Masamune as we see it in CC lives in a world where Frog no longer exists and its masters sleep. The Masamune as we see it in CT lives in a world where Frog is always present and its masters awake.
5) The Masamune in CT lives in a world directly opposite of the Masamune in CC (in terms of its own experiences).
6) The Masamune found in CT is a typical broadsword with a nice blue glow.
7) The Masamune found in CC is not a typical sword at all - it doesnt even look like a broadsword anymore, and it is red in color.

Lets put this together: CT: Frog, awake, typical, blue.
CC: No Frog, asleep, not typical, red.

8 ) The Masamune as it is in CT is the direct opposite of the Masamune as it is found in CC in terms of appearence and experiences (as partially stated above).
ready?
9) The Masamune in CT represents the experiences/feelings of Glenn, who by the hands of Magus became like him - one with two identities.
10) If the Masamune in CT is the direct opposite of the one in CC in all ways except for the fact that it exists, then all attributes above pertaining to the appearence, experience, and 'reason' of the Masamune as it is in CT should be 'inverted' for the Masamune in CC.
11) Therefore, the Masamune in CC does NOT represent the experiences/feelings of Frog.

yay

razor's edge

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2005, 02:51:00 pm »
I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.

Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8340
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2005, 03:24:45 pm »
What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...

Also, were Masa & Mune simply sleeping in CC? When Doreen comes out they speak about how they were 'caught' and Doreen accuses them of causing trouble...

Faulce

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2005, 03:27:01 pm »
Quote from: razor's edge
I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.

Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.

Well Queen Zeal was influenced by the power of Lavos - but wasnt controlled by him per say. After all, she did go to far with energy extraction via the Mammon Machine - but if Lavos was in control of her, that never would have happend. To say that Lavos energy or Lavos/Time Devourer is evil is a little ridiculous. From TD's point of view, a bunch of kids secretly influenced by the mastermind, Belthasar, are trying to kill him. yay points of view.

razor's edge

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2005, 08:36:11 pm »
Quote from: Faulce
Quote from: razor's edge
I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.

Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.

Well Queen Zeal was influenced by the power of Lavos - but wasnt controlled by him per say. After all, she did go to far with energy extraction via the Mammon Machine - but if Lavos was in control of her, that never would have happend. To say that Lavos energy or Lavos/Time Devourer is evil is a little ridiculous. From TD's point of view, a bunch of kids secretly influenced by the mastermind, Belthasar, are trying to kill him. yay points of view.


Yeah, but, a bunch of 'kids' are what killed Lavos in the first place, before becoming the TD. Do you think he'd forget something like that?

And if the Masamune wasn't effected by evil from the TD, then why did it become evil? Masa and Mune got bored so decided to make good people kill their friends? I'd like to know exactly how you propose the sword turned evil then.

And about Doreen 'catching' them, she could have meant that she caught them sleeping on the job.

Faulce

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2005, 08:58:02 pm »
Lavos/Lavos Energy/TD/ are not evil. The sword is not evil. Look at it from a neutral point of view (we are used to the view via Serge, if we had a view via the TD it would all be opposite). We have a problem here:

Is the sword comprised in some way of Masa and Mune? Or are they simply its masters?

If they are not directly of the swords composition, you could argue that they only control the Masamune - so while they are asleep they are not in control of it as they claim in the game. The Masamune is just a sword, it is, however, infused with Lavos energy. Therefore the Lavos-energy-infused Masamune is being its natural self, without anyone inhibiting it.

If they are directly related to the swords composition, they must be affected by the Lavos energy somehow. To say that they are free from it makes sense if you argue that Lavos energy only makes the sword powerful and does nothing in terms of influence.  I disagree with this though. Queen Zeal saw the opportunity for absolute power, Radius saw the opportunity to best his ally and become number one. Frog saw the opportunity to slay Magus and win back the honor of his friend.

Lavos energy represents undying ambition and is neutral. However certain plot points make us think that the sword somehow becomes good or evil. Masa and Mune seem to be able to slightly alter the Ambition from a selfish form to a selfless form (hence Frog's ambition). This is based on their own judgments (or Melchiors judgments) on what is good or evil. I know many of us consider being selfish to be bad, but remember that Lavos energy, whether or not it represents undying ambition, is just energy - it cannot think. Without a medium to pass through (Masa and Mune) it will only give its user the will to reach their absolute potential. And yes, Doreen probably meant "catching them on the job"

The Lavos-energy-infused-Masamune never became evil, it became natural again.

saridon

  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 720
  • eater of cows and small fuzzy animals since 1991
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2005, 01:07:53 am »
arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune

GreenGannon

  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 460
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2005, 11:45:40 am »
Or perhaps, Lavos was what kept the sword balanced. Once he was destroyed the balance was destroyed and Masa and Mune fell into a deep sleep.

GreenGannon

  • Squaretable Knight (+400)
  • *
  • Posts: 460
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2005, 11:47:58 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...


Except the Dragon God. Explain that one.

razor's edge

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2005, 02:21:27 pm »
Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.

Quote from: GreenGannon
Quote from: V_Translanka
What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...

 


Except the Dragon God. Explain that one.


Yeah, didn't it turn out that the Dragon God was being controlled by the TD? Then it's definately plausible that the TD affected the Masamune through the energy stored in it from before Lavos became the TD.

Faulce

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2005, 02:45:43 pm »
Quote from: saridon
arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune

Radius's view is skewed.

Quote from: razor's edge
Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.

Thats like saying its wrong to kill anything for food, even if its to survive, as long as you are sentient.  Thats ridiculous - Lavos/TD only cares about its survival and the humans only care about their survival.  Taking this from both the human and neutral point of view: The weapons the humans make are not "good" they are simply used for that reason. At the same time, Lavos energy is not "evil", it is simply used for that reason. Again this from a human and neutral point of view.

razor's edge

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2005, 02:57:22 pm »
Quote from: Faulce
Quote from: saridon
arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune

Radius's view is skewed.

Quote from: razor's edge
Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.

Thats like saying its wrong to kill anything for food, even if its to survive, as long as you are sentient.  Thats ridiculous - Lavos/TD only cares about its survival and the humans only care about their survival.  Taking this from both the human and neutral point of view: The weapons the humans make are not "good" they are simply used for that reason. At the same time, Lavos energy is not "evil", it is simply used for that reason. Again this from a human and neutral point of view.


This is from an anything living that isn't Lavos point of view. Everything Lavos did isn't necessarily evil, until he bursts outta the ground and destroys Zeal, and again when he destroyed the world in 1999 AD. Since he's sentient, he could have chose to share a symbiotic relationship with the Zealians, where the Zealians have magic because of Lavos, and Lavos gets his DNA. There are tons of examples of this in nature. For example, there are many different types of bacteria living on your skin. They get their food from the air and you, and you are protected from other, harmful, bacteria by these bacteria.

But Lavos chose to destroy the world, twice. Therefore he is evil, from every point of view, save maybe his own.