Author Topic: Magus's Weakness to the Masamune  (Read 13967 times)

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« on: February 07, 2005, 03:00:08 pm »
Throughout my endeavors of playing CT I always questioned why Magus was weakened by the Masamune. I have not gotten an answer that is solid enough. There are some theories, but they always have holes that are too large to overlook. Here is what I can say is concrete about the whole thing;

- Since it affects Magus's magical defense, it has to do with the fact that he is an innate magic user.
- It is made of dreamstone, therefore most connections with Lavos are hard to be founded, since Dreamstone exsisted before Lavos came to Earth.
- It has no apparent effects on Queen Zeal, thus countering any arguement that it hinders all magic users.
- It drains power from the Mammon Machine, most likely implying that the swords purpose is to destroy Lavos.

So if anyone can strew together a concrete reason as to why it affects Magus, please do so. I hope this isn't anwered in a sentence in the first post, for that would annoy me beyond all other things.

Faulce

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2005, 11:26:02 pm »
Well I would think that because the Dreamstone absorbs Lavos's power, everytime it touches Magus, it absorbs a little bit of his strength, draining his defenses. But if it doesnt affect Zeal, then I guess that doesnt work....hmmm strange.

Radical_Dreamer

  • Entity
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2773
    • View Profile
    • The Chrono Compendium
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2005, 05:31:23 am »
Interestingly enough, it also drains energy from the Mammon Machine. That should be fun to reconcile.

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2005, 10:57:35 am »
Oh yea, haha forgot about that. Thanks RD, I'll add it to the list.

The best theory I can throw together is that Masa and Mune know that Magus is Janus, and they want him to not fight Lavos, knowing completely that he would get crushed if he fought Lavos by himself. But that would also assume that they know that he wouldn't get killed in the spar and that eventually he would team up with the right people to fight Lavos. Remeber that thier purpose is basically, to destroy Lavos. Its not much but is all that I've got.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8325
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2005, 05:08:25 pm »
Perhaps Zeal is too powerful? Or, as she says when she's defeated, her power doesn't seem to work there, so perhaps the anti-mag defense of the Masamune is negated as well. Or maybe the Masamune working so well against Magus has to do with Frog's state of mind. I think that makes the most sense, as later, when powering up the Masamune, and other times when you talk to Masa & Mune, they state how it's not who has the sword, but how they use it. Mind over matter. Perhaps this is also why, when Magus uses the Masamune against Lavos, it doesn't work.

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2005, 12:15:25 pm »
I doubt that the knife Magus uses on Lavos can resemble the Masamune or even the ruby knife. It might have been made from dreamstone, but it didn't have that personal embodiment of Masa and Mune. That is why it failed in my opinion.

But with yor logic about Zeal, the sword should have worked after you beat the broken Mammon Machine. I am assuming her real powers are from the transformation.

Frog's state of mind, hmm that is interesting. But I can't shake that notion that the sword was made to destoy Lavos, not Magus. So why won't it work on Lavos, since Frog's state of mind is completly against Lavos after the sword is powered up. We might be onto something here, but I wanna make sure that it is concrete.

Andrelvis

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 63
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2005, 08:48:18 pm »
Because even though Frog is against Lavos, he doesn't have the same state of mind when fighting Lavos as when he fights Magus. Frog doesn't hate Lavos, he rationally knows that Lavos will destroy the world and must be destroyed before he does so, but there is no personal hatred. Whereas, with Magus there is. Magus killed Frog's best friend that he looked up a lot to. So, there's a huge emotional difference between fighting the two... And the Masamune is based on people's emotions and feelings, not their convictions.

I also have another theory: The Masamune was designed by Melchior to destroy the Mammon Machine, not to destroy Lavos himself. It is potent against Lavos energy, but Lavos himself is too powerful for even the Masamune have any advantages against him. But the Masamune is potent against Magus and the Mammon Machine, because they use the Lavos energy, but are not the pure source, they only have a fraction of Lavos' power. And THAT the Masamune can withstand...

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2005, 02:01:50 pm »
So Frog's hatred for Magus enables the sword to actually work? Then why is there a legend that the sword will weaken Magus? Those two don't coinside very well, it would make sense if there wasn't a legend behind the sword. But because of the legend, it kinda negates your theory. Cyrus didn't have much hatered for Magus, it was more of a save the kingdom kind of mission. Not a revenge against someone who killed my best freind. I hope you see the difference I am trying to point out.

I was pretty sure that it was decided that Magus did not use Lavos's power for his magical abilities. So that scraps that theory, and plus using that logic the Queen should also have been affected by the sword.

razor's edge

  • Porrean (+50)
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2005, 02:11:39 pm »
While I agree with you that Magus's power was not Lavos-fueled, I don't think that the Queen can be considered innate at the point that you fight her. What I mean is, yes, the Queen is an innate, but she is relying on Lavos's power, using it instead of her own or to enhance her own natural ability.

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2005, 04:54:29 pm »
Quote from: razor's edge
While I agree with you that Magus's power was not Lavos-fueled, I don't think that the Queen can be considered innate at the point that you fight her. What I mean is, yes, the Queen is an innate, but she is relying on Lavos's power, using it instead of her own or to enhance her own natural ability.


Exactly, because of that the Masamune should have had the same effect as it did on Magus, based off that theory. That is why it doesn't work. Maybe I am misinterpreting what you said, please comment.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8325
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2005, 06:16:29 pm »
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def. Perhaps this magical ability is really what the Masamune is absorbing...It seems as though the Masamune, and likewise with all Dreamstone, absorbs focused (Lavos) energy. As is the case with the Mammon Machine and Magus because for one, he's summoning Lavos, and two, he has the ability to increase his magical defense (via magic). Also, can we really say for a fact that Magus doesn't have his magical ability from Lavos? He obviously knows of it's existence, and it's power, and he was even attempting to summon it. So why couldn't he have gained magic from it?

Also, in Zeal's transformed state, she is more directly drawing Lavos's energy, so perhaps that plays a part in it.

And really, we don't know about Cyrus. Perhaps he does have a personal agenda against Magus...Cyrus really was a quite undeveloped character in the game. He seemed to have a true love of the throne, like Frog would later have.

sarua

  • Earthbound (+15)
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2005, 10:34:21 am »
Quote from: CTcronoboy
So Frog's hatred for Magus enables the sword to actually work? Then why is there a legend that the sword will weaken Magus? Those two don't coinside very well, it would make sense if there wasn't a legend behind the sword. But because of the legend, it kinda negates your theory. Cyrus didn't have much hatered for Magus, it was more of a save the kingdom kind of mission. Not a revenge against someone who killed my best freind. I hope you see the difference I am trying to point out.

I was pretty sure that it was decided that Magus did not use Lavos's power for his magical abilities. So that scraps that theory, and plus using that logic the Queen should also have been affected by the sword.


Well i don`t remember this legend corectly but here is my theory:

There is legend about unbeatable mistic, Magus(well there wasn`t but sure there was rumors about his dark powers and things like that) so people need hope(without hope you are almost nothing) and someone starts legend that sword can weaken magus and kill him, that person ho started rumors/legend probably knew that there was something strange about that sword. And Cyrus sure didn`t had such agenda against magus as Frog had. And i don`t think that Cyrus was stronger than Frog at that scene were he faces magus with masamune

SilentMartyr

  • Magical Dreamer (+1250)
  • *
  • Posts: 1373
    • View Profile
    • http://www.chronotrigger.info
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2005, 11:26:51 am »
Quote from: V_Translanka
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def. Perhaps this magical ability is really what the Masamune is absorbing...It seems as though the Masamune, and likewise with all Dreamstone, absorbs focused (Lavos) energy. As is the case with the Mammon Machine and Magus because for one, he's summoning Lavos, and two, he has the ability to increase his magical defense (via magic). Also, can we really say for a fact that Magus doesn't have his magical ability from Lavos? He obviously knows of it's existence, and it's power, and he was even attempting to summon it. So why couldn't he have gained magic from it?

Also, in Zeal's transformed state, she is more directly drawing Lavos's energy, so perhaps that plays a part in it.

And really, we don't know about Cyrus. Perhaps he does have a personal agenda against Magus...Cyrus really was a quite undeveloped character in the game. He seemed to have a true love of the throne, like Frog would later have.


Well that I am sure of, it defintely has a tie in with his magic abilities. Maybe we are looking at this in the wrong way. We are trying to tie this in with Lavos somehow, maybe it ahs to do with the fact that Magus doesn't depend on Lavos for his magical abilities. I am certain he doesn't depend on Lavos, he still uses his magic even after Lavos is killed (remeber him floating in the Epoch ending?).

What I am proposing is that it has to do with the fact that he gets his magic from the planet, and not Lavos. Whatever his source of power is dreamstone has the ability to drain ones resistance towards magic because of it.  I guess the only hurdle there is figuring out who or what is Magus's source of power for his magic.

Sarua I don't think the legend was ever given to us in a story form. just more like snippets from word of mouth. It would be really hard to speculate on how the legend was born and if it was based on someone knowing the truth or just guessing on blind hope.

V_Translanka

  • Interim Global Moderator
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8325
  • Destroyer of Worlds
    • View Profile
    • http://www.angelfire.com/weird2/v_translanka/
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2005, 06:44:50 pm »
If Magus got his magical abilities from Lavos, as I proposed, why would he lose them when Lavos is defeated? I don't mean he constantly drains Lavos of magic, but, like with Spekkio, he could have used Lavos to unlock his magical potential.

Faulce

  • Guardian (+100)
  • *
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2005, 10:07:24 pm »
1) Dreamstone absorbs a freakish amount of Lavos energy
2) Perhaps Lavos energy refers to energy produced by Lavos, not the energy of Lavos, hm let me explain that... Example: Go find a sword that absorbs electricity. Now go find a person who surrounds themselves with this power and go kick their tail. Now go to a power plant and see how much damage that sword does. (not the best example, but it will do i guess)
3) Magus's life isnt that long, so a legend couldnt really exist, unless there was another legend about an unbeatable Mystic before Magus's arrival.

My odd thought: Perhaps Magus doesnt use Lavos energy at all, perhaps Lavos energy hurts him. The only other example of this I see is when Lavos drains him of his techniques at the Ocean Palace.
Quote from: V_Translanka
Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def.

Yea I like that idea. Perhaps the Masamune/Mammon Machine can absorb magic existing externally (in terms of the body). Not really absorb so much as slowly draw from (otherwise no magic attack could hurt M.Machine unless it overloaded it). Eh, people know what I mean.