Author Topic: Magus's Weakness to the Masamune  (Read 21065 times)

sarua

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2005, 03:22:08 pm »
So humans also are evil, because Dragon God, dwarfs, demi-humans say so. Lavos is doing what he must do. Only TD may be true evil.

Faulce

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2005, 05:02:10 pm »
Well, razor's edge, I guess you've never scratched your skin.

Zeal became too close to Lavos, and by that point, he no longer had any need for them to exist - he could always make more. Its just like how you scratch your skin when you have an itch - you kill many organisms, but you will get more eventually, so you dont even think of it, and if you do think of it, you dont care. Lavos's body IS the planet now, if anything replaceable on it bothers him, he will eliminate it if he so chooses.  Again you only say he is evil because you see things from the human point of view.

razor's edge

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2005, 12:44:32 am »
The planet is not Lavos's body. Let us assume for a moment that the planet is a living organism itself ala FF7, or better yet, that the planet is the Entity. That makes Lavos a parasite living inside the planet, and, as with symbiotic relationships between different species, what's bad for the host is bad for everything that lives on the host. This makes Lavos evil from the planet's point of view. And, whether or not one considers the planet and Entity the same, from the Entity's point of view it seems Lavos is evil as well. My point is, the majority of creatures and beings consider Lavos evil. Not just from humans' point of view.

And scratching one's skin is not needless destruction of creatures. Considering the size of the planet, I'd say an earthquake equates to the planet scratching an itch. While there is death of organisms in an earthquake, it's not intentional.

Lavos bursts out of the ground, which can not be considered his body, and 'Rains fire down from the heavens!' That is intentional destruction, not scratching an itch.

And, unless for some strange reason you don't consider the original 2300 AD to be a dead or dying planet, then Lavos is indeed a sentient, evil parasite.

V_Translanka

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2005, 06:19:52 pm »
But Lavos is obviously deeply connected to the earth, so that things that effect the earth more than likely make their way down to Lavos's knowledge.

Also, I still don't see how/why the DoT would do anything with the Masamune. It seems rather far-fetched.

If anything, isn't it easier to believe that the person who stole the Masamune during the Fall is the perpetrator of the change? I mean, I've always thought that the Masamune ending up in the Divine Dragon Falls was a bit more than coincidental...I thought it was put there simply to set things in motion...At first I thought that Lynx wast to blame, but I there's something about him not being in existence yet...I'm not sure, what's the deal there? I think it's Lynx that did it so that those events involving Lynx and the Masamune (Dario's death and the sealing of the Sea) would occur. Either him, or perhaps it's all just more of whakky Belthasar planning.

SilentMartyr

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2005, 07:11:13 pm »
I agree with V_T, it wouldn't make any sense for the Time Devourer to control the Masamune. Making the Dragoons go bonkers and kill each other doesn't really seem to help or hinder the Time Devourer in the grand scheme of things. All it needed to do was get the Dragon Gods unsealed by FATE.

razor's edge

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2005, 07:41:24 pm »
But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.

Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.

Faulce

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2005, 07:56:11 pm »
Quote from: razor's edge
Lavos bursts out of the ground, which can not be considered his body, and 'Rains fire down from the heavens!' That is intentional destruction, not scratching an itch.

And, unless for some strange reason you don't consider the original 2300 AD to be a dead or dying planet, then Lavos is indeed a sentient, evil parasite.


Lavos needs to support himself, but by doing so I (as a human on earth) will be destroyed, so I choose to destroy Lavos.  I chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore I am evil.

I need to support myself by destroying Lavos, but by doing so Lavos will be destroyed, so Lavos chooses to destroy me. He chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore he is evil.

yea - way to go razor's edge....

Lavos seeks the perfect evolution - so he must manipulate his subjects on earth for the better over time. If he just "let them go", they might destroy him or his offspring - he must take that into consideration, so he has to destroy the world, otherwise he is putting himself at risk. (and yes I know he put himself at risk by emerging - thus allowing Crono and co. to see his destruction - but he replicates on the surface because his children apparently cannot launch themselves to other planets from underground - so he had to emerge).  
Crono and co. discover this, the do not want themselves and the world to be destroyed, so they do the same thing as Lavos - they seek a way to kill their enemy before their enemy kills them. Lavos will not have his offspring hindered, and Crono will not have the world destroyed.  In the end its not really about good or evil, both are just doing what they think is best for themselves and their own kind.  Therefore Lavos is not evil, unless you consider Crono evil.

SilentMartyr

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2005, 08:09:50 pm »
Quote from: razor's edge
But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.

Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.


I never said it could free the Dragons itself. It would have been a pretty short game if it could  :P

Maybe the reasoning behind the blood shed on the sword has something to do with it.

razor's edge

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2005, 10:24:50 pm »
Quote from: Faulce
Lavos needs to support himself, but by doing so I (as a human on earth) will be destroyed, so I choose to destroy Lavos.  I chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore I am evil.

I need to support myself by destroying Lavos, but by doing so Lavos will be destroyed, so Lavos chooses to destroy me. He chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore he is evil.

yea - way to go razor's edge....


What part of destroying the world has to do with perfect evolution? Where is Lavos's need for the destruction of the world to protect himself? He has his perfect evolution before he destroys 1999 AD, so how about explaining why, exactly, that is needed for his survival?

While it's possible the humans were enough of a threat to him in 1999 AD that Lavos needed to destroy them for his own survival, you can't make that assumption, because we don't know nearly enough about that time period to be able to determine one way or the other.

Quote from: CTcronoboy
Quote from: razor's edge
But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.

Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.



I never said it could free the Dragons itself. It would have been a pretty short game if it could  

Maybe the reasoning behind the blood shed on the sword has something to do with it.

I never said you said it could free the Dragons itself. I'm just saying I think it would try to influence anything it can in that dimension to try and get something to destroy FATE. I doubt the TD was just sitting there hoping for a haphazard group of heroes to show up and do it for him.  :)

GrayLensman

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« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2005, 12:09:23 am »
Morality is an abstraction created by human society.  This concept does not apply to Lavos, an alien, any more than it does to a predatory animal.  Lavos never acted out malice, only to insure its survival and complete its reproductive cycle.  Lavos needed to destroy the earth in order to reproduce.

razor's edge

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« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2005, 03:17:16 am »
Quote from: GrayLensman
Morality is an abstraction created by human society.  This concept does not apply to Lavos, an alien, any more than it does to a predatory animal.  Lavos never acted out malice, only to insure its survival and complete its reproductive cycle.  Lavos needed to destroy the earth in order to reproduce.


But that's only in a purely scientific universe, as in, there are no higher powers that shape the universe and set what good and evil is, such as gods.

CT has many indications that there are such higher powers. Spekkio, for one, states that he is the God of War. Another would be the Entity. There's a cathedral in Guardia, 600 AD. Crono's innate element is Heavenly. These imply a set good and evil.

The indications aren't limited to CT alone. CC has many such indications in the Elements. HolyLight, HolyHealing, Saints; on the darker side, HellSoul, HellBound, GrimReaper. There's also Pip's HeavenCalls or Hell'sFury, and Lynx's FeralCats.

My point: when gods and theology are involved, good and evil are more than just abstract human creations.

Also, since the Dragonians made the Elements, not the humans, this further indicates that higher powers exist in the CT/CC universe since both humans and reptites knew of them.

Locuster

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2005, 05:16:46 pm »
Non-sentient kills a non-sentient.... not evil.
Non-sentient kills a sentient.... sucks a lot, but not evil.
Sentient kills a non-sentient.... not evil.
Sentient kills a sentient.... evil.

There are exceptions like self-defense and insanity, but the basic premise rings true.  The only real question is whether Lavos is sentient or an animal acting on instincts.

As for the Masamune, I'm not quite sure what the debate is now.  If good and evil can become tangible in the Chrono universe, the old sword is good, something happened, and the new sword became evil.  Tangibility of evil can be seen in many works of fiction, like the one ring in the Lord of the Rings, which was clearly an embodiment of evil.  I wouldn't put it past the Masamune either, especially existing in a world of dragons and magic.

GreenGannon

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Magus's Weakness to the Masamune
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2005, 06:35:11 pm »
I have not seen proof in any way that Lavos is evil. He is merely surviving and following instincts. I have heard some arguments though.

Argument: He destroyed Zeal.

Rebuttal: Which was draining his life force, slowly, but surely. Even if it takes millions of years, eventually Lavos would've died. I think it's a perfectly natural survival instinct, to kill that which is killing you.

Argument: He tricked Zeal.

Rebuttal: No he didn't. Zeal found his power and drew her on conclusions.

Argument: 2300 AD

Rebuttal: Lavos erupted during an age that was far more advanced militarily than *any* other age. Considering that a small group of kids, using primitive weapons such as swords, scythes, crossbows, and fists--Aside from Lucca-- Is it then, too hard to assume that an entire civilization with even stronger weapons could take out Lavos? Again, perfectly acceptable survival strategy.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2005, 06:27:01 am »
According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.

Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).

As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).

sarua

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« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2005, 09:01:03 am »
Quote from: Chrono'99
According to the names of his attacks, Lavos would really be evil : Evil Emanation, Shadow Doom Blaze, Shadow Slay, Span Death, Crying Heavens, Dreamless, Evil Star. Only "Invading Light" doesn't sound evilish.

Anyway, the existence of the Frozen Flame shows that Lavos must have some conscience : the Frozen Flame is conscious, and it serves as a mediator between an user and Lavos (it would be hard to mediate anything if Lavos was a mere animal).

As part of the Devourer of Time, Lavos shows sadness, sorrow, despair and hate, so it prooves that he's conscious and has feelings (although negative ones).


He is master of magic so he probably knows every spell and attack which can cause magical damage. From the game we can see that magus is strongest in magic, maybe it`s because he is using shadow magic which maybe is strongest of all magics and because this magic is believed to be evil it`s spell names are evilish. So if shadow is trongest wouldn`t it be logical for Lavos to use strongest magic?