Author Topic: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair  (Read 2350 times)

kritterpher

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 03:31:06 am »
    i'm confused :(, i think you all look to deep into things.

Xenterex

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2008, 03:54:06 am »
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(And does anyone think that there may be more than three spacial dimensions? It is impossible to tell; squares do not even know that depth exists, yet depth exists nonetheless. Or perhaps spacial dimensions stop at 3? Hm. This is getting off-topic, though...)

try looking up a 'hyper cube'  It, and any other 'hyper' shapes are, spacial 4th dimensional objects.  Spacial dimensions are perpendicular to each other, so they created a rendering of another perpendicular axis to be viewed in our third dimension.  Anyway, there are animations and articles that describe it better than I can, especially since  you have to see it to get the picture =p.

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We never see evidence in Chrono Trigger that the Entity was guiding Crono & Co.
  I'd say Lucca's personal 'red-gate' is an example of this.  The entity is reaching out to her and giving her this opportunity.  Additionally, I'd say that the Entity does play a role in guiding, or rather, choosing Crono for this.  Gasper said the Time Egg only works on those who are important to the Time line, ie, there are qualities or events that initiate this to work.  I'd think that part of that element would be the Entity, as what else would decide if something is 'important' to a timeline, especially when it comes to not only freezing time, but effectively defeated death, though temporarily?   Furthermore, I'd say this factor of 'crono's importance' and 'selection' is evident went he's killed.  If I remember right, this doesn't stand out in the newer animated sequences, but I it does stand out on the SNES version. 

When Crono confronts Lavos,  his powers aren't absorbed, or ineffective as they were with Magus.  There was a reaction, indicated by the energy bolts forming, and due to this reaction  Lavos had to adjust what he was doing, and in turn focus the energy onto Crono, thus obliterating him.  From that, I perceivedm Crono has a factor for opposing/destroying Lavos, and that's part of what made him 'important' to the timeline, thus being one of the requirements needed for the Trigger to work.  Furthermore, I'd say Crono has a another significant role to play in this as well, as various endings still involve Crono being revived with the Trigger, even if Lavos is defeated without him. 

Thought

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2008, 11:25:11 am »
We don't know that the Red Gate was caused by the Entity. What caused it? Hmm, we have a giant forest that sprouted from a magical sapling that the Guru of Life gave to a woman in Zeal. The forest is known to be magical, because Robo was able to create an artifact that can revive someone (the Green Dream). The innate power of the place is interesting. The Entity might have still been responsible, but it also isn't the only (or best) explanation.

True, Gaspar said that the Time Egg only works for people who are important to Time. To note, the Entity is not time. Therefore, Crono may or may not be important to the Entity; Gaspar's statement is referring to something else. But as for what decides what is important, nothing needs to. Does life decide that water is important for its survival? No, but that doesn't make it any less important.

As for not draining Crono's powers, it doesn't drain anyone else's powers beside Magus's, so we don't really know how that behavior works. Did the nature of Magus' powers allow them to be drained (He is a Zealean, was he still using Lavos' power, for example? that would explain why he was reduced to low level elemental magic and had to work his way back up). Could Lavos have drained Crono's power and just didn't? Was the proximity of the Mammon Machine a factor? etc.

The Entity might be guiding Crono & Co, but such an assumption doesn’t have a stable foundation. Thus it is good to consider that it might not be reality. It might be, but then again it might not.

killercactus

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2008, 05:10:45 pm »
Actually, the more I think about this thread, the more I think the entire point is moot.

In the "Lavos is dead" timeline, Crono might not even go to the Millenial Fair.  Crono might not even exist.

The timeline in which Crono met Marle at the Millennial Fair was discarded to the DBT as soon as Crono went back to 600 AD to save Marle.  Unless someone can travel to the DBT, no one can ever get back to that timeline to kill Crono, Marle, Lucca, Melchior, anyone to stop them killing Lavos.

Xenterex

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2008, 03:31:47 am »
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The Entity might have still been responsible, but it also isn't the only (or best) explanation.

It certainly isn't the 'only' explanation, sure, but the whole scene had particulars that follow various patterns used in good story telling.  Having a discussion about the origins and nature of the portals via the 'entity' and then having a unique portal and opportunity showing itself seems more to reaffirm Robo's theory, rather than suggest any other possibility.  While it can be anything else the Chrono crew can pull out of their hat, as it is their product, but without other suitable information present, it would weaken the story telling.  There's a particular rule of theater/story telling that comes to mind in regard to conveying information to the audience, and the significance of what is reveled:  If you mention *someone* has a gun in Act 1, then that gun needs to go off before Act 3.  There is simple importance to what information an author chooses to reveal to the audience, in any medium.  If that information can't be trusted, then it either needs to be qualified, or the product is poorly made.  Given the high regard given for Chrono Trigger, I claim it is not poorly made, therefore there are patterns of quality story telling that are apart of that quality.  Therefore, I think a stable foundation can be indeed be created from the information that was chosen to not only be revealed, but also acted upon.

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To note, the Entity is not time. Therefore, Crono may or may not be important to the Entity; Gaspar's statement is referring to something else
Again, from the information granted from the camp scene, which while I do admit they are simply discussing a possibility, but a possibility the has reinforcement in other elements of the game  (such as at the end when someone mentions the 'entity' being at peace)  there is a connection between the entity and time.  The entity isn't Time itself,  but it certainly seems to demonstrate a nack for temporal alterations.  Furthermore, time is relative, meaning its particular to each being.  If being alive is important to you, than wouldn't the means of keeping yourself alive also be important to your time?  Another way of phrasing that is how one chooses to spend their time.  What's important to someone, is observable by how they chose to spend their time.
  In that context, then Gaspar's statement can be included to mean "Crono is important to Time" period; as in, his significance is more than just defeating Lavos  (which I gather from how much weight that put on Crono being revived in multiple endings)  and maybe more than just to that planet alone, ie, suggesting that Crono is worthy of a sequel he exists in.   Or, the approach can be taken that Crono is important to the time of the entity, ie, the entity's survival, which certainly is threatened by Lavos.  Or both in that the 'entity' could be more than just that one planet, and thus Crono could be important to time in the battles against Lavoids, or whatever origin is given there.

Your comparison between the 'entity' and 'life' is a poor analogy.  'Life' is a condition, or quality, a distinguishing trait.  The entity is a creature, an existence, capable of actions and decisions.  One is capable of deciding for itself was is or isn't important to it, then other isn't.

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As for not draining Crono's powers, it doesn't drain anyone else's powers beside Magus's, so we don't really know how that behavior works.

Because Crono intervened on everyone else's behalf.  Once you regain control of Crono during that scene, all other characters present are slowly pulled toward Lavos.  Considering his purpose in taking DNA and stealing the planet's energy, what else would he do with them by pulling them closer?  If he sought to destroy them outright, he would've continued his assault.  Either way, Crono stood up and intervened there.  If not to save the lives and energies of his teammates,(so they can continue the fight another day) then for what? 




yujinishuge

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 11:44:22 am »
I don't know what all the speculation is about.  If someone from the new happy 2300 AD kills Crono, at any time before Crono decides to kill Lavos, there will be an endless time loop.

We'll call the 2300 in which Lavos has destroyed the world 2300A, the one that results because Crono kills Lavos is 2300B, and this time traveller we'll call assassin.

A. The time traveler from 2300B wants to kill Crono so he goes back in time.. (let's say to 1000 AD)
B.  Crono dies.
C.  Lavos lives.
D.  2300 A occurs, thus the assassin either 1. does not exist, or 2.  has no idea who Crono is, thus has no reason (or means perhaps) to travel back to 1000 AD.
E. Crono lives.
F.  Lavos dies.
G.  2300B occurs, go to A.

You've now destroyed the universe!

Thought

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 12:33:58 pm »
That is what Time Traveler Immunity and Time Error are for. You'd have the same problem with ANY change to the timeline if time travelers could be effected by such changes.

1) Crono travels to 2300 AD, sees a ruined future, vows to destory lavos.
2) Crono destroys lavos,
3) There is now no ruined 2300AD for Crono to visit, he'd never vow to destory lavos, so...
4) Lavos lives.
5) There is now a ruined 2300 AD for crono to visit, he vows to destory lavos.
6) Wash, rinse, repeat.

yujinishuge

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 12:52:05 pm »
That is what Time Traveler Immunity and Time Error are for. You'd have the same problem with ANY change to the timeline if time travelers could be effected by such changes.

1) Crono travels to 2300 AD, sees a ruined future, vows to destory lavos.
2) Crono destroys lavos,
3) There is now no ruined 2300AD for Crono to visit, he'd never vow to destory lavos, so...
4) Lavos lives.
5) There is now a ruined 2300 AD for crono to visit, he vows to destory lavos.
6) Wash, rinse, repeat.

Hmm never thought of that.

Dark Serge

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 02:17:44 pm »
So basically "time" is not like a circle going round and round, but rather like a straight line extending forward? Seems to me that that violates some of the things in CT as well.

utunnels

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 03:09:49 pm »
When a person travels backward through time and messes things up(a small change will probably make the history completely different, maybe that's so called butterfly effect), then he comes back, how could he makes sure everything(or most) is in order(e.g., is he still exists in that era)? Or we must accept the fact that there are countless/infinite branches after a certain point of time line, and when he returns, he MUST be in the branch which contains him, something like he goes through a huge funnel(probably as wide as the universe, the time gate) has only one tiny outlet(the destination era).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 03:17:28 pm by utunnels »

Thought

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2008, 03:26:35 pm »
So basically "time" is not like a circle going round and round, but rather like a straight line extending forward? Seems to me that that violates some of the things in CT as well.

How so?

placidchap

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2008, 03:46:29 pm »
I've recently thought of time as a circle, with the end of time being....at the "end" of the circle...and it so happens that the end is also the beginning.  Easy, straight line, point to point time travel to all times if it is a circle.

Nifty Picture included.

Still working on a theory as to why this would even matter...

[attachment deleted by admin]

Dark Serge

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2008, 04:45:17 pm »
So basically "time" is not like a circle going round and round, but rather like a straight line extending forward? Seems to me that that violates some of the things in CT as well.

How so?

Because if it would go round and round, like someone said, after Chrono fixes the future there's no ruined future anymore for Chrono to fix, so he would never fix it, so there's a ruined future, etc etc paradox

KebreI

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2008, 04:50:55 pm »
So basically "time" is not like a circle going round and round, but rather like a straight line extending forward? Seems to me that that violates some of the things in CT as well.

How so?

Because if it would go round and round, like someone said, after Chrono fixes the future there's no ruined future anymore for Chrono to fix, so he would never fix it, so there's a ruined future, etc etc paradox
TTI

Dark Serge

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Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2008, 04:55:29 pm »
TTI? Applied to what, exactly?