History of points
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Body and Revival
Status: Resolved
Yeah, it all makes sense to me pretty much. I also had a theory of my own that all of the Magic attributes, if that is the right word for it, such as Heaven/Lightning, Fire, Ice/Water, and Shadow, all fit into different Element/Elemental attributes, again if that is the right word for it.
One thing concerns me though. The part about how...
If Crono's physical body is damaged to the point that his biological systems fail, Marle can restore him while his elemental energy remains. Healing is simply the reinforcement of an entity's elemental energy.
Does this only refer to when Crono dies, but his physical body is still pretty much intact? What if he loses some limbs or takes some damage to the brain that causes some brain damage or memory loss? And what if he is disintigrated like with the situation when he "died" at the Ocean Palace?
The Ocean Palace incident is a special case. There was no opportunity to resurrect Crono, and the blast that destroyed his body may not have been a standard magical attack.
Robo: If we're caught in that
energy field, our molecular structure
will be disrupted!
I think Lavos completely dispersed or absorbed Crono's energy.
The battle system doesn't offer any information on what injuries characters can sustain. I equate hit points with energy and not physical condition. Crono's physical state is determined by his elemental properties. As long as he has adequate energy, Crono's body will remain intact.
If Crono's physical body is disabled or destroyed, an information signature will be retained for a short time in his elemental energy. Healing will restore him to his natural state.
Lavos Shell
Status: Resolved
Also, I think that Lavos' impact with the earth doesn't have to be that way. It could be, like with many newly born species, that Lavos simply has some kind of protective shell or barrier that protects it from the impact at that stage of it's development. Or, possibly, the "head" of the Lavos Shell is simply not there. It seems like, during the battle, the only thing that's really damages is the "head", and not the shell itself, perhaps this is because the shell is impervious to attack.
My estimate for the energy of Lavos' impact is based on the Chicxulub impact which exterminated the dinosaurs. Any impact which would cause this type of global climate change which lasts for millions of years would have to have a similar magnitude. No physical substance could withstand a 100 teraton explosion. “Over 200 thousand cubic kilometers of the Earth's crust was instantly vaporized, melted or ejected from the crater.” (http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/sharpton.html). This is what I mean by supernatural--if Lavos' shell protected it from the impact, its properties cannot be explained by natural laws.
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Nonelemental Problem
Status: Resolved
Perhaps non-elemental attacks are more created by the force of the individual. Maybe that's how the people in that thread meant by comparing Tail Spin to Slash. Both Techs use the character's inner magic to create the magical effect. Although Slash becomes Lightning Elemental (or wait, is it Lightning Elemental?) because of Crono's Magical Innateness and Tail Spin does not, both are still inner, chi-like magical attacks.
Ayla can produce a non-elemental effect because her body has increased elemental properties. A wind generated through ordinary means would not have any elemental effect. The tech causes a non-elemental magical affect because of the way the energy is directed at the target.
Crono's Slash attack causes a lightning elemental effect because his body has increased elemental properties and he has an innate element, which Ayla lacks.
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CT vs. CC Elements
Evolution of thought:
I dont think that the dragonian elements should be seen as so important to element discussion rather than the four primary elements displayed in CT. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they arent "natural". Sure every character is innately one or another but then again, chess isnt a natural game, and yet somehow people are born with talent for it. The characters are good at harnessing one type of element, while poor at harnessing its opposite, like how people who are very used to hot climates in the south and can deal with them easily are easily damaged by colder climates found in areas of the north. The universe isnt dependent upon the balance of the dragonian elements, so I dont see why they would be extremely important to the discussion.
CT still universal, CC artificial elements created by the Dragonians/Chronopolis.
Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.
This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.
Difficulty:
But didnt the elements exist before Lavos? I thought only applied magic was created by Lavos (hence why Ayla cant use magic). In order to use magic in CT, you had to either be aware of your innate element, or had to have the ability to use applied magic unlocked. Also, the magic you used had to be of your own element, unless you paired up with someone else. The Dragonian elements seem to have the "just plug it in and use it" attitude. Not to sound completely stupid, but it sounds like the Bulma (from dragonball) solution to harnessing elemental power
Now let us get into statements and refutations:
Look at it along these lines: Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.
Here's why it makes more sense this way: Creatures evolve to make use of aspects of nature. We can see in CC that not only are humans able to use elements easily, but all monsters can as well. If elements were a part of nature, it would make sense that evolution would have caused creatures to be able to use them naturally.
In CT, however, nothing uses magic naturally, it has to be unlocked in one way or another. Magic is like a tool, you can't use it until you're taught how to use it (like a fork compared to ones teeth. One can use ones teeth instinctively, but will be puzzled by a fork until someone else teaches them how to use it).
Then why don't we see Element use in CT? <reality check>The programmers hadn't planned it yet.</reality check> Maybe Lavos had repressed the Elemental power of the planet when he erupted in 12,000 BC, and it was restored by the Dragonians when Terra Tower came to the world. Animals still had the ability to use Elements, as even 13,000 years (the unattainable maximum time) might not be enough to evolve it out of organisms.
Other evidence the Elements are natural: the mythology built up around them. Belthasar talks about the stars and moons representing the elemental dragons, which represent the elements. Given what he says with regards to the second moon, I infer that this is more than just a metaphor or myth; it's part of nature. We don't see the same thing with Lavos elements.
The point I'm trying to make is that the elemental divisions in CC are natural, while the divisions seen in CT are artificial simplifications (likely white and yellow combined to heaven, while green and blue combined to water, or something similar), brought by Lavos.
Difficulties: Spekkio states that four elements balance everything, not just magic. Chrono Trigger predates Chrono Cross, establishing this as the first system.
We can only assume Spekkio is telling the truth. The four elements form the basis for everything in the universe. This is a fact, clearly stated in the game.
Unless Lavos changed the laws of physics for the entire universe, it is not responsible for the existence of the magical elements. The elements existed in this form in 65 million BC before Lavos arrived, and in 2300 AD after Lavos was destroyed.
The Dragonian Elements and Color system cannot be more "natural" than the magical elements. The Elements were created by harnessing the planet's energy, rather than magically manipulating the fundamental forces of the universe.
The Language of Spekkio's statement is also clearly exclusive. There are no other magical elements. Any other physical property, including the Dragonian Elemental Colors, must be based on the four magical elements.
Lastly, we know the exact nature of the Dragons Gods, and they are far from Divine. They are the avatars of a multi-dimensional organic computer created by the Reptites. In other words, they represent the components of an artificial being.
<reality check>Actually, the laws of physics did change. When the programmers wrote CC, they changed the elemental system to cover six colors. Now, even the Time Devourer (=Lavos) uses elements.</reality check>
Difficulty: The Time Devourer consumed the Dragon God, giving him access to the ultimate elements, as well as probably they're entire arsenal.
Now, Spekkio may not have been lying, but he may have been wrong. If you'd asked an ancient greek scientist what made up the universe, they may have said:
Ancient Greek Scientist wrote:
Everything in the universe is made up of Earth, Air, Fire and Water.
He's not lying, but we know now that he's wrong. The evolution of science keeps leading us to lower and lower layers of reality. When atomic theory led us to believe that different atoms made up everything, we named different types of atoms "elements." Then we found out that atoms contained protons and electrons. Then we found out there were also neutrons. Then we find out protons and neutrons are made of quarks.
Difficulty: Since there is no real discovery science when dealing with fantasy worlds, one must take unchallenged statements to be real, unless they are later contradicted by the plot. The questioning of one statement unravels the validity of all the others. The only clear exception to this is the Marle paradox, in which Lucca seems to be lying, but this is reconciliable.
What's to say the same didn't happen in the CT/CC world? Spekkio thought that Fire/Water/Heaven/Shadow were elemental (why? Maybe because he only learned this from Gaspar, who only knew of Lavos-type magic. Maybe he's the embodiment of Lavos-type magic.), so he said this as fact. Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.
Difficulty: Spekkio is the God of War, quoted as "[seeing] all kinds of battles from here." It stands to reason that if the Elements were suppressed by Lavos according to Leebot's theory, they are assumed to have existed for some period prior. Spekkio, at the End of Time, would be able to see all time periods. Thus, he would have been able to see and understand Elements before Lavos would have repressed them under this structure.
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
The CC script never states that the six elemental colors ever form the basis for reality.
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy. The Magical Elements may be secondary to the Elemental Colors, but this requires Spekkio's ignorance. Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power. Also, no one discovered the existence of these elements pior to the arrival of the Dragonians.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
How do you know any of this?
Since magic works in 65 million BC before Lavos arrives, I conclude that it functions without Lavos' influence. Belthasar can use Magic in 2300 AD after Lavos is destroyed.
Magic is powered by the elements. The Mammon Machine is the only magical connection to Lavos, and before it was constructed, the Zealians used the Sun Stone's energy.
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Why can little monsters use Elements?
El Nido is a small artificial archipelago with an isolated population. Elements are clearly abundant. The wildlife had thousands of years to adapt to using Elements. I wouldn't be surprised if the creatures were engineered to use Elements by FATE or the Dragonians.
Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly. Additionally, we see robots of the Dead Sea's Chronopolis using Elements, and from the way the Tragediennes speak, it sounds like they were programmed to use them (how else would they be able to? They're not going to evolve). Now, there's no one left in the Dead Sea to program them, so they must have known to use elements in the future the Dead Sea was drawn from.
And why are you forgeting about fate? It had full control over El Nido. Yes evolution takes a long long time, but what about variuos expiriments? And if i`m not mistaken in the future there were no monsters in Dead Sea and again why are you forgeting about fate? Can`t it program? Fates AI is astonishing so it would easily learn such things as programming.
Adapt not evolve. Elements are equipable artifacts and animals only have to learn how to use them. Elemental usage is not an innate ability like Magic.
The Dead Sea is a reflection of the future. Since the arrival of Porre, Elements have been available to the outside world. It stands to reason that Elements would be in widespread use on the mainland in the far future.
Go teach a monkey to use a hammer, then I'll give this argument some weight. Better yet, leave a hammer by a monkey, and see if it learns to use it on its own.
Apes make and use their own tools. Elements come pre-packaged and are easy to use. After thousands of years of trial and error, Elemental usage would become part of the animals' natural behavior. Also, most of the creatures encontered in combat are highly aggressive and intelligent. I wouldn't count out the influence of the Dragonians either.
Chronopolis seemingly populated El Nido with organisms; if this is able to be accomplished, engineering them to have Element Grids and other mechanisms of defense is not out of the question. The Chronopolis computer is stated to contain an entire record of the planet's history until 2400 A.D. As for the question of why FATE would do any of this, consult the Analysis forum thread on FATE/Mother Brain; it had ambitions of becoming its own species and life force, and was quoted as wanting to create a paradise. Intelligent humans, such as those from Porre probably do not have too much trouble figuring out how to use an Element Grid.
The reason the Chrono Compendium has been the best site since it opened in July 2003 is conservative, strict adherence to what is given to us. While we can make our own terms, the concepts behind the names are usually clearly operating in the series, and even referenced. This has allowed us to explain the Dead Sea, while bubblebobby2000's FAQ failed because his pool of theorists had no policy, vision, or adherence, concocting complex solutions that were often baseless. Meanwhile, our restriction, through hours of hard deliberation (I have those AIM chats archived), granted us and continues to deliver a working model and testament to the Chrono series.
