Author Topic: An Elemental Model for Character Abilities  (Read 21571 times)

Hadriel

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« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2005, 08:31:01 pm »
Q, though powerful and quite funny, isn't a god.  Gods can't be outwitted, and yet both Picard and Janeway have defeated him on these grounds several times, but I digress.

Anyway, I hope it's not too late to add my two credits to this.  As GrayLensman has said, the systems must work together for the series to make any sense.  Therefore, I have come up with a theory that I believe accommodates both systems.  It contains some ideas that have already been presented, but there are some modifications.

I tend to lean more towards the CT elements forming the basis for the universe, as they are analogies -- heaven and shadow represent the popular belief of light vs. darkness, God vs. Satan, etc.   Fire and what should more correctly be termed Cold represent the activities of physical energy -- entering and leaving objects, redistributing itself through atomic motion.  Those are the basic universal constants -- order, disorder, light, and darkness.  But CC does not deal extensively with the metaphysics of the universe at large.  Rather, it is more the story of this one planet, and objects interact differently with the nearby influence of an object as large as a planet -- especially if one takes planets, and the life that inhabits them, into account.  The green and yellow elements consist of phenomena that only occur on a planet -- lightning, wind, nature-based powers, and the like.  They are the colors that make up a planet's individuality, while the other four are universal constants that apply to that planet.  Combining all of these ingredients produces the song of a planet -- our fair world has a melody which it sings to the life that can hear it, but it is but one of an uncountable number in the universe, all of which have their own voices to lend, hence the harmony metaphor.  As Lavos wishes to consume all of the universe, it seems fitting that the combined power of the universe would stand against him.

So, basically, it boils down to this:

Heat, Cold, Heaven, Shadow -- Universal physical constants, the basis for all of physics and metaphysics in Chrono
(Green, Yellow) -- Strictly planetary phenomena, manifestations of a planet's spirit usable by "lesser" lifeforms

As far as the animals using elements go, these are likely simply denoted as Elements under the CC battle system, when in fact they are, to the animals, natural Tech skills -- the animals, as Leebot has pointed out, must have evolved or been evolved to use these abilities.  The most likely explanation for humans using some of the same element abilities is that the Dragonians took the techniques from the animals -- they are extremely connected to the natural world, after all.  Seeing as Chronopolis may be at least partly responsible, I move that they would use anything that would increase their power, regardless of its origin.  Yes, some of the animals are extremely dangerous, but the Element resources to combat them have been made available to humans one way or another.

Part of this theory is, admittedly, poetic license based on story themes utilized in the series, but in this case, the case of dealing with a fictional universe possessing magic and spirits as one of its variables, that it is at least semi-permissible.  Not only that, I do not believe that there is any piece I have left unaccounted for.

On the issue of the Lavos Shell, his facility with magic likely had something to do with the fact that he survived the impact.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2005, 08:46:08 pm »
Perhaps Lavos basically turned his whole shell into Frozen Flames when he crashed on the planet (he did appear as red and fiery, before even entering the atmosphere), so that he either didn't sustain damages or managed to heal them using the Frozen Flames' properties (the healing/reversal stuff they speak about in Chronopolis, which may be magic or some time rewinding ability). That could have been during this crash or the falling into the atmosphere that one of the Flames broke off and formed "the" Frozen Flame we know about.

Leebot

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« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2005, 09:06:44 pm »
Nice theory, but I still say Q is a god (or at least the Sci-Fi type of god). Being outwitted does nothing to prove one isn't a god. Look at Odin: He was outwitted by Fenrir in the events leading to Ragnarok (the end of the world). Only recent, monotheistic religions use the idea of gods being perfect. In almost all polytheistic religions, gods have their own flaws.

Hadriel

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« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2005, 09:09:47 pm »
I suppose Q would be much more like the Nordic or Greek gods than any monotheistic god, but yes.

I doubt that there were five thousand Frozen Flames that chipped off Lavos -- he wouldn't have a shell left.

Leebot

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« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2005, 09:15:29 pm »
Well, spaceships entering Earth's atmosphere come equipped with a heat shield that's meant to burn away in the atmosphere. Maybe Lavos has something similar, which also handles the crash into the ground.

Swordmaster

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« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2005, 10:11:45 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel

Heat, Cold, Heaven, Shadow -- Universal physical constants, the basis for all of physics and metaphysics in Chrono
(Green, Yellow) -- Strictly planetary phenomena, manifestations of a planet's spirit usable by "lesser" lifeforms


Green and Yellow. Masa e Mune show theses colors and one say that he is the wind(green).
the pannels in the Black Omen show theses colors too, along with Zeal crest.
Maybe in Zeal they use the same elemental model as CC. Even because Zeal is Masato Kato idea, whithout changes by the rest of Ct developers.

Hadriel

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« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2005, 11:21:41 pm »
I'd say his magic enables him to project a head shield of some sort.  Either way, he's got a fail-safe.  A special layer of shell would work, but given that Lavos can engineer lifeforms, he'd probably have modified it to where it at least grows back so he can maintain maximum resistance against attack.  However, I don't think he'd like the wait time, which is why I think a magic shield is more likely.

Good point about Masa and Mune.  Should've remembered that myself.  They're dream beings representing life.  I don't think Zeal used the CC model, though, because Chronopolis, and in turn, Dinopolis, weren't around until 7600 B.C. as opposed to Zeal's fall 4400 years earlier, and in no case do Elements exist before the advent of those two forces.

Faulce

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« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2005, 12:07:44 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
I'd say his magic enables him to project a head shield of some sort.  Either way, he's got a fail-safe.  A special layer of shell would work, but given that Lavos can engineer lifeforms, he'd probably have modified it to where it at least grows back so he can maintain maximum resistance against attack.  However, I don't think he'd like the wait time, which is why I think a magic shield is more likely.

Wait the time...hes going to be there for millions of years, he has time. Perhaps the only purpose the Spawn have for having a super dense shell (try damaging it, sheesh) is so they can survive their initial impact on a planet and burrow into its surface. Afterwards, they begin absorbing the power of the planet, make genetic manipulations to achieve greater evolution, etc. and grow another hard shell to help them burrow back to the surface and begin reproduction.
Shouldnt we put this in a "Life Cycle of Lavos" or "Evolution of Lavos" topic thing instead of discussing it here?

EDIT: didnt feel like double posting, so im going to add this.
Quote from: Spekkio
You are strong of will...!

   That's why the Old One let you
   through.

   Long before you were born...
   ...there was a kingdom where magic
   flourished.
   Everyone there could use it!

   But in time, people began to abuse
   their powers. It got so bad that no
   one was allowed to use magic except
   wizards.

   But you have it...determination, I
   mean!
   Magic needs power of the heart.
   It needs inner strength.

   Magic is divided into 4 types:
   Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.

 Ok, so at some point, somebody restriced the use of magic to only a certain few. I believe the people after the fall of Zeal decided that magic can only lead to more segregation of individuals, so they abandoned it.
Quote from: Frog
Be that magic you use?
   I hath heard only magicians wield it
   now.

The only magicians we see in Frog's time are mystics (excluding Magus). I have come up with two reasonings as to how the mystics acquired magical abilities: (1) After the fall of Zeal they became free of servitude. As the humans abandoned magic, they embraced it as a way to eventually overrun their former masters.
(2) When Janus arrived in the Middle Ages, he taught Ozzie how to use magic to save his own life, promising that the mystics would be able to defeat the humans with ease. Eventually his fully developed powers allowed him to assume leadership of the mystics.
 
Quote from: Spekkio
That's the biggest toy I've
   ever seen...
   Hey, you're not alive, are you?!

   You've got great strength, however,
   since I can't measure your inner
   character, I can't give any magic to
   you.

   But your laser weapons will suffice.
   They can inflict «Shadow» type
   damage.

Apparently, assuming Spekkio could measure his inner character, Robo would be able to use magic. Unforutately I cant find the conversation between Spekkio and Ayla, but Spekkio states that Ayla cannot be given magic because she was born before it existed.


 
Quote from: Spekkio
Not just magic, but
   EVERYTHING is based on the balance
   of these 4 powers.

Luckily this quote (and the fact that Crono and co can use magic in 65 mil BC) shows that magic was not created or brought to earth by Lavos, but the ability to harness the four elements  without any physical device (such as a crystal like in CC) did come to earth with Lavos in that no creature on the planet had this ability until afterward. (dont be confused though, the power could be harnessed, which is why Crono and co are able to do it)

V_Translanka

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« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2005, 02:24:39 pm »
Q is pretty much a god. The only reason anyone has really stopped him is because of the self-inflicted rules he puts on his power and what-not. As he's proven, if he wants, he could simply kill anyone if he wanted.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2005, 04:42:10 pm »
Quote from: Faulce
Quote from: Spekkio
That's the biggest toy I've
   ever seen...
   Hey, you're not alive, are you?!

   You've got great strength, however,
   since I can't measure your inner
   character, I can't give any magic to
   you.

   But your laser weapons will suffice.
   They can inflict «Shadow» type
   damage.

Apparently, assuming Spekkio could measure his inner character, Robo would be able to use magic. Unforutately I cant find the conversation between Spekkio and Ayla, but Spekkio states that Ayla cannot be given magic because she was born before it existed.

Quote
SPEKKIO: All right!
Sweetheart!

Unfortunately, you were born before
magic existed! But you seem to have
other skills that will get you by.


Basically what you said.

razor's edge

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« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2005, 07:44:14 pm »
Quote from: Faulce
Quote from: Spekkio
You are strong of will...!

   That's why the Old One let you
   through.

   Long before you were born...
   ...there was a kingdom where magic
   flourished.
   Everyone there could use it!

   But in time, people began to abuse
   their powers. It got so bad that no
   one was allowed to use magic except
   wizards.

   But you have it...determination, I
   mean!
   Magic needs power of the heart.
   It needs inner strength.

   Magic is divided into 4 types:
   Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.

 Ok, so at some point, somebody restriced the use of magic to only a certain few. I believe the people after the fall of Zeal decided that magic can only lead to more segregation of individuals, so they abandoned it.


That "somebody" who restricted magic was more likely than not Lavos. And instead of the word 'restricted', I'd say it's more fitting to call it 'locked'. As in, Lavos took away their ability to use magic when he realized how much of a threat it was to him, but he obviously couldn't take it away completely, more like he locked it away, seeing how Spekkio could unlock it. Wizards and Mystics and Magus could still use it because they could use in naturally, as in without the aid of the Mammon Machine or Sun Stone. I don't think that the former Enlightened Ones would have stopped using magic if they still had the ability to, because none of them knew what happened at the Ocean Palace, all they knew was that their world fell apart, literally. Considering that the sudden turn of events most likely madee life harder for everyone, if they could have used their magic to help out, they would have.

On a bit of a side note (sort of), I kept wizards and mystics separate because I don't think that when Frog or anyone else mentions wizards that they mean mystics. We know mystics use magic; as for wizards, we didn't see any wizards besides Magus in CT, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist, since in CC there are several wizards, like Guile (I can't remember any others at the moment).

GrayLensman

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« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2005, 08:05:29 pm »
"Wizards" is a mistranslation.  

According to Arc Impule's retranslation, Spekkio states that only the Mystics are able to use magic after the fall of Zeal.

Quote from: Spekkio
A zillion years before you brats were born... There was a kingdom where magic thrived. In that world, everybody could use it.
But that kingdom drowned in its own power...
Since then, people haven't been able to use magic. Well, except for the Mystics, right?
But you guys have it. Your hearts are strong. Magic is the strength of your heart -- your power.
Magic consists of four powers: Heaven, Dark, Fire, and Water.

Faulce

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« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2005, 09:51:35 pm »
Hmm, I wonder what makes the Mystics so special. Must be influence from Lavos.  "Lets see which genes are stronger..."
Quote from: Faulce
The only magicians we see in Frog's time are mystics (excluding Magus). I have come up with two reasonings as to how the mystics acquired magical abilities: (1) After the fall of Zeal they became free of servitude. As the humans abandoned magic, they embraced it as a way to eventually overrun their former masters.
(2) When Janus arrived in the Middle Ages, he taught Ozzie how to use magic to save his own life, promising that the mystics would be able to defeat the humans with ease. Eventually his fully developed powers allowed him to assume leadership of the mystics.

So i guess (1) is closer-ish to being correct. Modified: (1) After the Fall of Zeal, Lavos, seeing the humans as a failure, began his gene experiments on the Mystics, giving them also the ability to use magic.
(2) Mystics could already use magic, after the fall of Zeal Lavos, seeing the humans as a failure, increased this ability (or let it evolve on its own overtime). This evolution could not be impeded as the humans had little power to stop it. Eventually the Mystic population increased and true rivalry began between the the mystics and humans. Only Lavos could really benefit from any outcome of the war.

razor's edge

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« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2005, 10:11:34 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
"Wizards" is a mistranslation.  

According to Arc Impule's retranslation, Spekkio states that only the Mystics are able to use magic after the fall of Zeal.

Quote from: Spekkio
A zillion years before you brats were born... There was a kingdom where magic thrived. In that world, everybody could use it.
But that kingdom drowned in its own power...
Since then, people haven't been able to use magic. Well, except for the Mystics, right?
But you guys have it. Your hearts are strong. Magic is the strength of your heart -- your power.
Magic consists of four powers: Heaven, Dark, Fire, and Water.


Ah. Well then, only Mystics and Magus could use magic then.

And about Mystics retaining their magic after the fall of Zeal, the magic they used probably wasn't drawn from the Mammon Machine or Sun Stone, so they used 'real' magic, like Magus's. By 'real', I mean born with the magic power; they didn't need an external source to gain their magic abilities from, how most of the Enlightened Ones did. Lavos either couldn't lock the Mystics' magic, or didn't for some reason, but considering the intellegence level of many of the Mystics, I think Lavos couldn't lock their magic.  If he could, he would have, since magic was a great threat to him.

Faulce

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« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2005, 11:16:16 pm »
Magic is a threat to Lavos, but he does not perceive it as such. He allows humans to hold magic for a long period of time, its all about attaining perfect evolution for Lavos, to use a planets living resources, find what is best, and give that to itself. If the mystics ever did acquire magic from a source outside of themselves, it was most likely Lavos.