Author Topic: What is a Save Point? The conundrum that is the save point.  (Read 1224 times)

User240485

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What is a Save Point? The conundrum that is the save point.
« on: August 03, 2008, 05:38:59 pm »
First I would like say "hi". These my first topic post here. So.... Hi

   Now lets dive into my limited understanding of Chrono Mechanics. Before I thought I knew everything about CT. But just recently I started to read on the time traveling theories I call "Chrono Mechanics". Also let me state that I have used the search button and didn't really find anything on the save point? I'm slowly trying to understand everything and a good point to start is here, so please bear with me.

   Save Points, yes they are put in the game for the player to save and load the game. I guess the compendium wouldn't exist if people didn't question seemly irrelevant things in the CT games. Its possible that the save points could be a "gift" from the Entity that is trying to help Chrono and Co. traverse time so they can ultimately stop Lavos. But then the question comes up why are there so few scattered apart so much, it would be way easier if the there was a save point every 10 steps, thought that would be annoying to see. Not to mention how would the Entity know that a set of events would unfold and/or a battle would ensue. You could speculate that the save points where placed in limited locations by the Entity due to its crippled and diminishing/diminished power. So they where sparingly placed in convenient locations. How would he know where to place them? Well the Entity would know every event that happens right? Well since Chrono and Co. are rewriting history with every step they take, how does the Entity know what happens. There are a million possible actions that Chrono can take and with them million possible futures. It may only remembers the events that have happened, stating that the Entity doesn't dwell on the "what ifs", and in an effort to help its only fighting chance placed save points, meaning that they would have saved the world once without saves and it's only for purpose is game play convenience or the Entity trying to ease the labor/hardship of the tired time traveling troupe.

   But another point of view is that they could be another time anomaly that may have nothing to do with outside influences. (Ex. Lavos, Entity) What if it's some sort of matter or material naturally found on the planet, a sort of "Time Matter". Its unusual properties only become "active" because of a nearby temporal disturbance. They resonate creating a chime sound and shine brightly only when Chrono and Co. come strolling along, which would suggest that they have become an anomaly themselves when they entered the time stream, Or it could be Chrono's electrical element that is triggering it, but that doesn't make sense when he dies and the party can still save, and that would make Chrono a walking battery. Whichever the reason, it only responds to Chrono and his crew. Which is why everybody can't use a save point. Otherwise people would find one SAVE run to the nearest casino, gamble, if they lose all their money LOAD and try again, and eventually everybody would be rich. Or worse yet what if a monster or boss found out how to work them you would be stuck fighting the same boss over and over. Anyway these natural time matter could also be the base material component that the time eggs are composed off, mainly speaking about the time egg to save Chrono, that was created by Guru of Time, Gaspar. It could also be the stimulating trigger that Lucca uses to open the time gates. She might have found some picked it up and experimented on it found that an electrical charge resonates the metallic/crystal matter stimulating the time gate, opening it. But why not go around picking them up and using them over and over. Well Chrono could just be stupid and didn't think about that, and the rest of them well just didn't question they're fearless leader. Or it could be that they require a optimum temporal equilibrium to function properly, these could take several years to several thousand life times to reestablish, so to not lose a save point they just used them and went on there way, with the possibility that they might have to come back to it someday. For some that don't know what I'm talking about think heat, or rather transfer of thermal energy. If you drop a hot object into a bucket of water the water will heat up and the object will cool down until they reach an equal temperature. Well the same could happen to the save points, they just sit there for several years and eventually it reaches the temporal equilibrium.

   In the real world I once read that there is a super substance that is yet to be determined by scientists. I believe it was called "white gold", and no these has nothing to do with real gold, they just called it that. It had unnatural paranormal properties. I changed it weight every time scientist weighed the exact amount. A spoonful would show a less than the spoon empty by itself. Its also believe that it was a cure-all and once consumed it could cure numerous illnesses. It couldn't be identified and when tested, results were that no substances were present. I believe I read that a man that built the Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida was thought to have use the properties of "white gold" to move huge stone coral into place to make a coral castle. I know I found it somewhere but my attempts to find any relevant data on the substance have been fruitless. I know I found something once because it sparked a conversation with a fellow CT fan, that conversation last about 5 hours.

Now that I have lain down what it is, now how about how it works.

   Simple explanation is that its just another form of a time gate and that the player goes back in time to that location before they made any changes or errors. But how would it explain when an entire party was wiped out. Maybe the rest of the Chrono Crew came along and helped them when they didn't report in after a few days, possible but highly unlikely. I believe that they are really just a memory recorder. I mean you come along see one you bend down and instantly write your memories onto it along with you overall plan for the upcoming events, and if the Chrono party is killed then. Another Chrono would show up and read the save point know that the first Chrono didn't come back and rewrite on it saying "the plan worked everyone is fine, don't need to worry go on, oh and watch out for the monster on your left". The second Chrono would then write on top of that his new plan of attack and it repeats until one plan works. But sometimes you never comeback to that save point. How does the recorder effect work with other save points? Well it seems that the "time matter" is itself a naturally occurring time anomaly, and that they are in some way connected even though they are separated by time and physical space.

   Another explanation of the save points could be a viewer, more than a recorder. For those of you who actually went to see the movie "NEXT" with Nicolas Cage, he could see the future but only for a few minutes. In one scene he explains that he has seen a million futures because in each he has done something different to get a better outcome. We see these because he walks forward and the bad guy starts shooting each time he is shoot dead but we then see that it was a alter image of a failed attempt to dodge the bullet, and that since he saw it happen once he dodged it the second time. So basically he foresaw all the dodge movements and then he's just standing in front of the bad guy and he has no more bullets. Well instead of seeing that he foresaw the bullets path then snapping out of the vision then walked forward doing all the movements it sort of happens in real time allowing us to view each attempt apparently as he was making them. Well that's what happens in a save we play the game we make a mistake and the group is dead basically what we saw was the failed vision. We load up and nothing happened, characters are still alive, and no progress has been made. We try it again and succeed. Well instead of flashing back to save point and trying to reenact our successful vision, we just take it as a understood "given" that he did everything in the vision. He really doesn't travel forward in time to see these or anything he just imagined it in his minds eye with the use of the save point. But if that were true then why doesn't he just memorize every single action and just dodge every single attack. Well Chrono isn't the smartest banana in the bunch, and may not have had the mental capacity or time to memorize every single action, although it more of an instantaneous vision. He may have only just wanted to see the overall plan, or in trying to reenact the movement he makes mistakes and gets hit while attempting a dodge. He just clucks it up the "best laid plans of mice and men often go awry".

Okay I have spend a great deal of time trying to rack my brain over the conundrum that is the save point. I would like to hear what you think, are there any evidence to the contrary. Maybe you though up of an alternate explanation. I would love to hear them.

Deezer509

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Re: What is a Save Point? The conundrum that is the save point.
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2008, 03:26:00 pm »
In the real world I once read that there is a super substance that is yet to be determined by scientists. I believe it was called "white gold", and no these has nothing to do with real gold, they just called it that. It had unnatural paranormal properties. I changed it weight every time scientist weighed the exact amount. A spoonful would show a less than the spoon empty by itself. Its also believe that it was a cure-all and once consumed it could cure numerous illnesses. It couldn't be identified and when tested, results were that no substances were present. I believe I read that a man that built the Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida was thought to have use the properties of "white gold" to move huge stone coral into place to make a coral castle. I know I found it somewhere but my attempts to find any relevant data on the substance have been fruitless. I know I found something once because it sparked a conversation with a fellow CT fan, that conversation last about 5 hours.
What the HELL are you talking about here??

As for the rest of your thoughts, I think you may be reading into the game too much.  After all, that's what it is: a game.  The point is to let players enjoy the experience, as opposed to simply relaying a story.  Besides button controls, save points are perhaps the most integral in connecting the characters on screen with the player.  If we forget that we are playing a game, numerous other questions arise.

Wouldn't they starve to death?  The last time the ate was in 65,000,000 BC... and the Enertron leaves them feeling hungry!  Not to mention, I haven't once seen a toilet in Chrono Trigger.

There are aspects of games that defy logical, plot-driven explanation.  I think save points fall in to that category.  Someone else gave an example of the elevator fights in another thread.  If you let the fight drag on, it would imply that the Ocean Palace is thousands of floors high.  (Unlikely.) 

That being said, I did enjoy your post.  It's interesting to think about these things.  I think your most valid point would be the connection to 'Next.'  However, there isn't any mention of foresight in the game, and I think it would have come up at one point if Crono and the gang possessed that ability.  In addition, the Ocean Palace incident leaves Crono dead.  D-E-A-D.  Based on your hypothesis, the save point should kick in, thus stalling the plot.

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Re: What is a Save Point? The conundrum that is the save point.
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2008, 04:06:53 pm »
While we usually don't dwell on things that are obviously game-mechanics...I think with Chrono Cross' Records of Fate, one can say that save points in the Chronoverse must be related plot-wise somehow...

The only thing I can think of the CT save points would be that they're divergence points where the Entity's plan could go awry...basically, places where alternate timelines/realities in which Lavos still wins can exist. You'd think the Entity would have strong memory (omg! memory=game save! :lol:) of where Crono & Co. would have boss battles, yeah...? It's also kind of interesting to note that you can save anywhere on the world map, though...

Vehek

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Re: What is a Save Point? The conundrum that is the save point.
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 04:12:57 pm »
In the Japanese version, the guy in the Mayor's Manor says:
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It's said there are places in this world where time's memory abides. There, even in places full of danger, you can take a record of your journey.

User240485

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Re: What is a Save Point? The conundrum that is the save point.
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2008, 09:43:34 pm »
Quote
In the real world I once read that there is a super substance that is yet to be determined by scientists. I believe it was called "white gold", and no these has nothing to do with real gold, they just called it that. It had unnatural paranormal properties. I changed it weight every time scientist weighed the exact amount. A spoonful would show a less than the spoon empty by itself. Its also believe that it was a cure-all and once consumed it could cure numerous illnesses. It couldn't be identified and when tested, results were that no substances were present. I believe I read that a man that built the Coral Castle in Homestead, Florida was thought to have use the properties of "white gold" to move huge stone coral into place to make a coral castle. I know I found it somewhere but my attempts to find any relevant data on the substance have been fruitless. I know I found something once because it sparked a conversation with a fellow CT fan, that conversation last about 5 hours.

Yeah sorry i kind of just wondered off on the conversion there for a minute but i just wanted to give a reference that even in our world there are substances we have yet to understand, and the same could be said about the CT world, and until someone with time knowledge like lucca get a hold of it remains just a rock to everyone else.

Yeah i know I've been reading to much into it, allot can be written off has game elements and doesn't exist. But then again CT is a game and the CT universe doesn't exist either. That and if figured what the H. E. Double Hockey Sticks I'll post it.

Well really they only eat when prompted by the player in castle ordering scene. or when storyline dictated. Maybe behind the scenes they just pull out a piece of jerky and stuff it in their mouth when they got a chance, probably when they were endlessly hiking though every dungeon, but due to limited pixel sprites it was not included, that and the animation of Chrono stuffing his mouth on a regular basis would get annoying turning away players. Also notice that not all house have enough beds for the occupant's (for some houses they didn't even have beds, those poor towns people had to sell the bed and sleep on the floor i guess)

Yeah Chrono dying that i might be able to explain. It kind of blows the record memories theory, but the vision theory might still apply. Well lets say Chrono used a save point started seeing lavos appear but since lavos being powerful and having temporal powers, It could have been changed or fuzzy not allowing for Chrono to see it. But ever the blockhead and undaunted he pushes forward to his doom. Maybe he did see it and once again his clumsiness lead to his doom. He might have had a plan since what looks like the beginning of a luminare spell but a split second hesitation caused him to be in the firing zone (yeah smart idea stand right in front of him as he is about to shoot.)

Third is what if Chrono wasn't actually a blockhead but a mastermind (i know a stretch right). Ever see "Deathnote" the main character was to willing gave up his deathnote (and his memories of it) knowing full well that his long and elaborate planing would cause the deathnote to fall into his hands once again, restoring his memories, through the process fooling his enemies. What if Chrono forsaw his death but having complete trust in his friends to play they're part and revive him willing braved a possible death. (and if you didn't save him, well maybe he didn't know his friends as good as he thought) and that his death was in some form a event that had to have happened. Maybe if he survived or dodged the attack lavos would have been in rage and rampage killing everyone including his friends, but lavos being please with himself that he had destroyed his only obstacle didn't even bother with his companions.

Quote
The only thing I can think of the CT save points would be that they're divergence points where the Entity's plan could go awry...basically, places where alternate timelines/realities in which Lavos still wins can exist. You'd think the Entity would have strong memory (omg! memory=game save! ) of where Crono & Co. would have boss battles, yeah...? It's also kind of interesting to note that you can save anywhere on the world map, though...

Saves... memory.. :lol:..... ahmm ah well... that still might fall into my viewport theory that instead of seeing the future he was seeing other really bad alternate timelines, course he might not have known what he was watching, and his first guess would have been that he was watching the futures. And as for that you can save anywhere on the world map well those darn are everywhere and if the player looked long enough he would have found one. But instead of having some silly "find the save point" mini game every time you wanted to save, we would just have to assume that they found one eventually.