Author Topic: Status of Angels in the Chrono Series  (Read 9399 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« on: January 21, 2005, 03:57:59 am »
Alright, I haven't posted here in a while, so I just thought I'd bring up a topic for discussion that has not yet, to my knowledge, been raised. This is, specifically, angels and their place in the Chrono series.
Now, angels occur, as far as I can tell, only three times in the games. The first that comes to mind is the obvious Angelus Errare of great fame in Chrono Cross. 'Where angels lose their way' is an interesting term in and of itself, but it implies that those in the Chrono world have some understanding, at least, of angeology. This might not be angels as in the Christian sense (warriors and messengers of God, terrible and glorious with flaming swords and the like, and such awesome beings as that), but imply heavenly creatures of some sort, at least on a greater plane of existence than humanity. But, overall, this term does not say much about what place they have in the scheme of things, only that some understanding of them is in place, much like in our own world.
The second point I wish to bring up is the final summon for the white elemental, Saints. Now, regardless of the name, these are not Saints proper, in the Christian sense of the word (for who ever of the saints becomes an angel?), but rather angels. It clearly says in the definitions that it calls an army of angels to aid your party. An interesting thing, I suppose, and a yet more clear showing of their existence in the Chrono world is made apparent, for here they are truly seen. Moreover, it is certain that they are more of the sort of the Christian/Jewish understanding, at least in some measure or order, for they are not cute cherubs but rather warriors sent from heaven, and quite apparently bear greater power than even your vaunted heroes do. How they arrive... theologically this is a sticky issue, as angels in the Jewish/Christian tradition could never be ‘summoned’, only sent at the bidding of God, and the times in which they engage in battle in the Bible are few, markedly the armies of heaven that surround a certain city, and if I remember right strike plague into the attackers (Elijah or Elisha is among those inside the city, and the faith and prayer of those is why God saves them with His own armies.) Now, it is quite doubtful that Serge and the rest have such faith as a prophet if, indeed, they have any faith at all. But that is simply a side point that I found interesting and as yet unresolved. I have one more comment on these angels, and that is the interesting apparel: it is plainly classical Greek. Whatever this may imply, I will leave it up to others to analyse for now (as my view of the similarities twixt the Chrono world and ours I have in past times made very apparent, and I needn’t do so now), but I thought it worth mentioning that they do exist.
Now, I have saved the most interesting occurrence (that I can remember) till last, and that is in neither CT or CC, but RD. This one can be counted as shaky, for it occurs in an alternate scenario, but be that as it may, it still proves interesting (perhaps in some form of the Chrono world it holds true.) Anyway, this is specifically the Phantom Break spell, in which Kid calls upon a certain fallen angel named Amcryst (if I recall the spelling.) Now, I am uncertain if this is a true name for any angel (it does not sound either Hebrew or Greek, so I doubt it, but maybe it occurs in the Apocrypha which I do not know), but that aside, one can extrapolate a few things of interest from this. Namely, it is referred to as the “fallen angel”; this at once determines a definition between good and evil, at least in that world. Moreover, it also demands a higher power which defines what is good, ie. absolute morality, else there would be nothing to consider an angel ‘fallen’. Thus in some measure, at least, God must exist in this timeline, and exercise authority over a class of angles. And, at some point, some fell into darkness, very similar to our own world. Basically, it provides an interesting glimpse into the supernatural forces, and specifically those of good and evil, that might rule in the Chrono universe, if this is not an anomaly in this time stream.
So, in essence, these are three points at which angels either are mentioned or occur, providing proof to the existence of the idea with the term ‘Angelus Errare’, and proof of actual existence, and the bearing of greater power than mortals, in the forms of the Saints summon. Finally, an event in either the second or third scenario of Radical Dreamers gives a glimpse into the ordering of higher powers in at least some timeline. The veil of mystery still lies upon the role of angels in the Chrono world, and probably always will, but I hope that this brings up at least interest in discussing it further.
Tell me what you think on this matter. It occurred to me just today, and I thought I’d write this mini-treatise on it. My apologies if this has already been addressed, and yet again my apologies for any lack of coherence that might be evident in the preceding paragraphs. I have attempted to set it out in form of essay with coherent paragraphs tying to a whole, but I have been exceedingly tired of late, and my ability to both think and control words is greatly depreciated.

Leebot

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2005, 08:10:10 am »
It seems to me that the presence of angels is just like the presences of Shiva or Ifrit in Final Fantasy; an aspect inspired by a real-world religion, rather than an implication that these religions exist within the game universe.

sarua

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2005, 10:08:50 am »
Imho it was added without reson, just to have more spells or smt like that.

Hadriel

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« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2005, 08:17:23 pm »
While it's a near-certainty that Christianity, Judaism, and the other major religions exist in the Chrono universe's version of Earth, the Angelus Errare terminology and Saints spell are likely simple poetic license used for the flair of it, IMO.

Swordmaster

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2005, 09:17:31 pm »
By the way, the stained glass in Manoria Cathedral have a picture of an angel, too.

Daniel Krispin

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2005, 09:23:01 pm »
Ai, that comment on it applying to the Judao/Christian tradition was only a side thing. I once before engaged on a lengthy debate regarding the application of real world history in the Chrono worlds, but this was not such an attempt. Sure angles might just be a literary device the game-makers used, but you know, most of the theories on this Compendium are not based on what the designers intended, but rather on extrapolation through analysis in a scientific fashion. I did no differently in this, and went so far as to put it into essay form. That said, I should think that, if there are no counter-facts, I can assume that my assumptions, seeing as they were made in the same manner as everything else in the Compendium, can be taken as viable theory. In the end, I said nothing more than cite that angels in some fashion do exist in the Chrono world and, in at least one time stream, are subject to higher powers and absolute morality. All this is supported by facts. If you want to bring in what the designers intended, you probably have to throw out half the Compendium (seeing as it is by and large, at least in scientific matters, based on deeper analysis than even the designers ever went through)... and that would be no fun at all, would it?

Fox

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2005, 01:25:56 pm »
Regarding your third point, isn't it possible that the other angels made the judgement?

GrayLensman

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2005, 03:23:41 pm »
In the context of the story, anything which is observed in the game should be considered to actually occur in the Chrono “universe,” even if it may be a literary device.  Images and terminology referring to angelic beings mean that they existed in reality or mythology.  Any religions in the Chrono series do not have to be true.  The gods people worship may not actually exist or may have a different form, such as the Dragon God.

The “Sacred Host” spell is the ancient magical ritual Magil uses to replace Kid's body in the Flower Garden scenario.

Quote
"Please listen and try to understand what I say. Kid doesn't have another
body. currently, Kid is bound to this jewel as a magic artificial body.
However, we may be able to bring her back if we find a living body that
meshes with her spirit. For this, I will be performing a ritual of an
ancient magic legacy, known as a `Sacred Host' spell."
Wow... ancient magic. I'd heard of this kind of thing before, but I had no
idea there was anyone alive still capable of performing it...
Hesitant to believe him, I ask "Do you think you can do it?"
With an intimidating look in his eyes, Magil turns his glance away from me
as he begins to chant to himself. The leaves all around us begin to rustle
up from the ground, scattering up in a vortex.
"From Dragon, to Wolf... from Beetle, to Imp, to Lizard... from evil men, to
a man among men..."
In succession, Magil's enchantment echoes all around us. Hearing his low,
rumbling voice, I find myself more and more hypnotized by his presence...
But Kid... I can't have her turning into any one of those. If she's turned
into a Dragon, I'll be nothing more than her next meal!
We'll have to find an absolutely stunning clone for her...
The world's a huge place. There has to be a clone out there that'll do...
there has to be!
"From Imp, to Heckran, to Lavos... choose any one you like. I recommend the
Lavos host; it's the strongest of all."
"Thanks, Magil... I've made up my mind."


             "Hatred and jealousy in my hands..."
         "Gather into a thousand dark prayers..."


                  "The fallen angel, Arcmyst..."
      "Answer my prayer, and grant me thy power..."


                  "Death to all living things..."
                  "Destruction to all creation..."


                        "Devour all light..."
                     "Phantom... Break...!"


Guardian, your analysis is certainly a valid theory.  It is also possible that Arcmyst is not an actually entity but only part of the wording of the spell.  The power used will be Magil's alone, and the incantation is only a device to focus his mind and energy.

Radical_Dreamer

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2005, 07:41:49 pm »
Interesting points. So far, the only other attempt at looking for angels in the series led to the Nu as angels. As for angels in a more traditional (and by traditional, I mean Semetic tradition) that I haven't really looked at, although GoA provides the examples. It would be interesting to determine which deity they are sent by (as the Chrono series has several).

Also, GoA, please tell me about the text in the bottom of your signature. Some of it looks like Hebrew written backward, but some of it looks completely different. I may be  bit shaky, as I haven't read Hebrew (particularly Ancient Hebrew) in a almost 8 years.

Daniel Krispin

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2005, 03:29:01 am »
Quote from: Radical_Dreamer

Also, GoA, please tell me about the text in the bottom of your signature. Some of it looks like Hebrew written backward, but some of it looks completely different. I may be  bit shaky, as I haven't read Hebrew (particularly Ancient Hebrew) in a almost 8 years.

Oh, that. A lot of people have commented that it appears similar in form to Hebrew, which is a good thing, I suppose, seeing as I based it on that. I was continually looking at various Hebrew lines as I devised those letters, and so I could hardly help but be influenced. I don't actually know Hebrew, but I like the way it looks. So this is actually my own script, and goes in hand with my own language I am creating (to which I have about 150 or so words, so far...plus grammar rules.) Unfortunately a few of the letters are, as you have said, almost mirrors to Hebrew letters; that is yet more obvious in the all uppercase variants (most of that line is in the lowercase.) It is decidedly difficult to try and be both original and be interesting in the devising of scripts, I have found.
The line itself isn't even in English, but says, if I remember right (I do have some trouble reading it, even though I devised it) 'Es mered il es nesa Nephilimo, il Merideth Faeri', which is essentially: 'the glory of the children of the Nephilim, of Merideth Faeri (the Magician)' (which is completely out of accordance with the picture in the sig, because it is of a fully different person.) Actually, my avatar is in the same script, but there spells my name 'Daniel'. Moreover, the other place this script/language occurs is in my Chrono fanfic, where I use it to be the script/language of Zeal. Though the script I only use in the title page of my printed out version at home, in the story I have about twenty or so lines written in the language that it represents.
So, in short, it's my own, but heavily based on and influenced by Hebrew lettering. I figured in writing fantasy having one's own language and script that one can write in goes a long way towards creating mood and feeling, and a certain sense of realism, if done aright. It's better than just putting down random words and symbols, at any rate. And it works way better when devising names, for that matter.

Radical_Dreamer

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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2005, 08:18:01 pm »
That's very interesting. Heh, my life would have been both more complicated and more simple if Hebrew had a case system. Or vowels and punctuation for that matter. Does your script have explicit or implied vowels? Ancient Hebrew only has implied vowels, but the modern variant sometimes uses explicit vowels.

Daniel Krispin

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2005, 08:47:39 pm »
Explicit vowels. At the time that I began to devise it, I did not even know there were languages that did wrote without vowels (I first happened upon it on looking at a book that dealt with ancient Greece, and there were references to some older languages that did so, though it did not mention Hebrew.) Moreover, I'm not really one that knows languages that well (I'm technically an Engineering student, after all) so I stick, in regards to most grammar and the like, to English (though I am trying to toss in a few oddities, if I can, like switching the order in possessives.) That may change in time eventually, though, if I learn more about languages. I'll still likely keep the explicit vowels, however; it would get far too confusing otherwise, especially as the vowels are quite important to pronounciation. A long e (pronounced like ay, or a Greek eta) at the end of a verb implies the infinitive case, so it would be quite distressing to simply cast off the use of vowels, as it would make that near impossible to tell. Moreover, most major endings, such as plural, possessive, and adverbial, are based on vowels (a, o, and i respectively), so that again would cause problems. The language itself would be pronounced very similar to ancient Greek, if I don't have Greek pronounciation wrong. As for the alphabet, I already have a slightly different than English alphabet, there. There is no c, q, h (a thing I borrowed from Greek), j, y, or x, but there are letters for ai/ae, ch, th and dh. Basically, overall, the sound and form of the language (save for the appearance of the letters) bears a greater resemblence to Greek than anything else... or at least that's what I intend.

In regards to the angel topic... damn, I did spell that wrong. I was working with a memory of the game that was a good three or four months old, so I thought it was Amcryst, not Arcmyst... oh, well, at least I got the letters right, if not the order.
As for the words in the spell... hmmm... I would think that the lending of power was meant, at least in that variation of RD, to be a direct summoning of the power of some darker being. After all, the Grim Reaper summon in CC supposedly summons Death (ie. Thanatos and Mors in the older traditions.) Also, since it has already been proven that actual angels are summoned with the Saints element, it is not inconceiveable that a spell exists that draws on the strength of a darker being. From a purely game design view, it is certainly an indirect reference to Satan, he being the only fallen angel that I can think of (as a side note, I just found out that his poetic/literary name Lucifer, the Light Bearer, is actually Latin for the Greek word Phosphorus; just a sidenote.) But a view inside the game... I don't know. That one seen just always gave me a certain chill, just because of how serious and dark it appears. One of the reasons it came so readily to mind.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2005, 08:55:58 pm »
Quote from: Guardian_of_Ages
That one seen just always gave me a certain chill, just because of how serious and dark it appears. One of the reasons it came so readily to mind.


This is similar to Magus' spell to summon Lavos.  We can definitely conclude that Magil is a true master of the dark arts.  It does appear that Magil is invoking the power of a real entity, but I don't think we should consider this scenario as canon.

Daniel Krispin

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Status of Angels in the Chrono Series
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2005, 09:05:01 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman

This is similar to Magus' spell to summon Lavos.  We can definitely conclude that Magil is a true master of the dark arts.  It does appear that Magil is invoking the power of a real entity, but I don't think we should consider this scenario as canon.

The Phantom Break is Kid's spell, though. But I know what you mean, and I certainly agree that that scenario is not canon. That is why I put that paragraph third, and qualify it as being "shaky" evidence, and relegated it to an alternate reality (as I believe is your common practice here on the Compendium for the extra scenarios.) After all, the other extra scenarios (I have not played them, but heard of them), appear to get quite... extreme... and are most certainly not in accordance with the rest of the games. The only thing I saw in the event is that there is a slight possibility that that aspect might just be in accordance with the actual Chrono timeline, though it is by no means certain. I take the first and second paragraphs as my hard evidence, and the third as speculation.

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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2005, 04:35:16 am »
Hmm... It is less shaky than most other scenarios because it doesn't require Serge to fall asleep, so it can't be a dream, whereas the other ones can.