Author Topic: A few questions regarding C. Cross  (Read 5914 times)

Reilos

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« on: January 16, 2005, 07:35:28 pm »
I've read dozens of different synopsis' and explanations, but I still don't quite understand what happened.  There are so many different ways to interpret the ending, I'm not sure which one is the right one.  In the end, all I felt was confused and angry.  So, that leads me to my questions which I hope one of you guys can answer:

1. What exactly happened to Schala in the Undersea Palace?  For all the world, in Chrono Trigger, the only thing that seemed to happen to that place was it began to fly.  I'm not sure how that caused Schala to be sent into some sort of void (the Tesseract?) where she and Lavos became fused.

2. On the subject of that, what made Schala so special?  I know she was supposed to be a sort of prodigy in Zeal (only Janus' undeveloped powers were stronger), but that still didn't seem to be anything so incredible as the power to alter space and time.  I know most of that power must have come more from the Time Devourer itself, rather than just Schala; but at the same time, could a Time Devourer be born from just anyone with magical powers and Lavos/a Lavos Spawn?

3. This one concerns the ending more.  I know it's debated, but what exactly happens to Schala?  I've heard that she fuses with Kid, but if that were true, who remains: Kid, or Schala?  Anymore I doubt this, because I remember Kid giving a line at one point or another that "she wasn't Schala" and someone (Lucca?) responded, "Yeah, I think she wanted it that way."  It would kinda destroy the point of Kid being who she was if Schala simply took over her body and mind afterward.  On the opposite end, if Schala became Kid, then the whole "save Schala from the TD" would have really just been a bust (save me so I can destroy myself :P ).

I've also heard that Schala supposidly goes back in time to find Janus, before finding Serge, thus giving the impression that Schala and Kid remain as seperate deities, each with her own life.  If that were true, however, does that mean Serge ends up marrying Kid, or Schala?  Was it Kid or Schala who wanted to find Serge?  I got the impression that it was more Kid, since we see her sailing the sea a few minutes later in the ending as though she was looking for him, as well as Schala being stuck back in 12,000 B.C. with Janus; but then again, there's that scene with (apparently) Schala on the beach, akin to the one with Kid from the beginning.

Furthermore, upon rereading what I thought were simple questions, why in heck did Square have to make this so complicated?!

ZeaLitY

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2005, 07:49:01 pm »
1. Think of it like this; in the original history, the party wasn't present at the Ocean Palace Incident. This means that instead of wasting her power transporting the two party members and Magus out of the Ocean Palace, Schala would have taken herself out of there, along with Queen Zeal and a person of her choosing. In the new history, she's stuck there. Also recall that Lavos's presence causes dimensional distortions; Chrono Cross explains that after she took the party away, she fell victim to one of these distortions and was displaced in the cosmic "trash bin" of the universe -- the Darkness Beyond Time, where discarded timelines end up and fade out of existence. The Mammon Machine also went temporarily in some form with her, but its role is unknown. After she bit the dust and was sent there, Queen Zeal created the Black Omen, etc. and the rest is history.

2. Good question, and I'm sure other forumers will help me here. My first answer is that, when Lavos was defeated, himself within his Pocket Dimension was sent to the Darkness Beyond Time, as the history of the PD-1 had been altered. Lavos was basically erased, but Schala's presence at the DBT allowed him to bind to her and retain some sort of existence. Secondly, and unrelated to Schala, my guess is that since the Time Devourer is in the Darkness Beyond Time, he has sort of a greater power and ability to alter or consume time than when Lavos was in the Pocket Dimension, resulting in his capacity to consume the entire space time continuum.

3. Don't know; there's an article planned to cover the resolution of Chrono Crisis and how the world would look in the Ideal Timeline, so I won't bother yet.

Reilos

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2005, 07:21:21 pm »
Quote
1. Think of it like this; in the original history, the party wasn't present at the Ocean Palace Incident. This means that instead of wasting her power transporting the two party members and Magus out of the Ocean Palace, Schala would have taken herself out of there, along with Queen Zeal and a person of her choosing. In the new history, she's stuck there. Also recall that Lavos's presence causes dimensional distortions; Chrono Cross explains that after she took the party away, she fell victim to one of these distortions and was displaced in the cosmic "trash bin" of the universe -- the Darkness Beyond Time, where discarded timelines end up and fade out of existence. The Mammon Machine also went temporarily in some form with her, but its role is unknown. After she bit the dust and was sent there, Queen Zeal created the Black Omen, etc. and the rest is history.


So... if that's true, then what happened to the original Schala who escaped the Palace?  Was she sent to the Darkness Beyond Time/Tesseract as well, seeing as her history was apparently rewritten?

The way time seems to flow in the Chrono series is a bit odd to me.  I've always been used to the continuative flow of time, that being that nothing we do ever really changes time, everything we do is what we were supposed to do and has already affected time.  A good example I can manage was in regards to Janus' memories after the Ocean Palace incident.  When you meet Magus afterwards, he retells his story as to how originally ended up being in Ozzie's hands (no Chrono and crew involved).  However, how could that be, considering his history was just changed?  Shouldn't he have remembered those events as they just transpired (with Chrono and crew), rather than the "original" way?

EDIT: whoops, forgot to respond to the other two points.

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2. Good question, and I'm sure other forumers will help me here. My first answer is that, when Lavos was defeated, himself within his Pocket Dimension was sent to the Darkness Beyond Time, as the history of the PD-1 had been altered. Lavos was basically erased, but Schala's presence at the DBT allowed him to bind to her and retain some sort of existence. Secondly, and unrelated to Schala, my guess is that since the Time Devourer is in the Darkness Beyond Time, he has sort of a greater power and ability to alter or consume time than when Lavos was in the Pocket Dimension, resulting in his capacity to consume the entire space time continuum.


I guess that kinda makes sense... sorta... :?

Quote
3. Don't know; there's an article planned to cover the resolution of Chrono Crisis and how the world would look in the Ideal Timeline, so I won't bother yet.


Alright, that's cool.  You gonna be the one writing it?  Look forward to reading it.

GrayLensman

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2005, 07:39:40 pm »
Quote from: Reilos
The way time seems to flow in the Chrono series is a bit odd to me.  I've always been used to the continuative flow of time, that being that nothing we do ever really changes time, everything we do is what we were supposed to do and has already affected time.  A good example I can manage was in regards to Janus' memories after the Ocean Palace incident.  When you meet Magus afterwards, he retells his story as to how originally ended up being in Ozzie's hands (no Chrono and crew involved).  However, how could that be, considering his history was just changed?  Shouldn't he have remembered those events as they just transpired (with Chrono and crew), rather than the "original" way?


In the Chrono Series, time travelers are protected from changes to their pasts.  If Magus remembered the new timeline, it would create a paradox.

Reilos

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2005, 07:44:54 pm »
How so, if you don't mind me inquiring, do you come to that conclusion?

I understand the theory behind the time travelers being protected from their changes... seeing as it was them who were doing all the changing.  But how would the paradox be created?  Wouldn't the original memories of Janus' journey to the future (year 600 that is) have just been erased and replaced by the new ones?

ZeaLitY

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2005, 07:48:24 pm »
Quote from: Reilos


So... if that's true, then what happened to the original Schala who escaped the Palace?  Was she sent to the Darkness Beyond Time/Tesseract as well, seeing as her history was apparently rewritten?

The way time seems to flow in the Chrono series is a bit odd to me.  I've always been used to the continuative flow of time, that being that nothing we do ever really changes time, everything we do is what we were supposed to do and has already affected time.  A good example I can manage was in regards to Janus' memories after the Ocean Palace incident.  When you meet Magus afterwards, he retells his story as to how originally ended up being in Ozzie's hands (no Chrono and crew involved).  However, how could that be, considering his history was just changed?  Shouldn't he have remembered those events as they just transpired (with Chrono and crew), rather than the "original" way?


Schala would live out her life on the continent of Last Village, or choose to die somehow. The pitfall to avoid is believing that she's Marle's ancestor, as the games do nothing to suggest this, and discount this possibility totally with Schala's new history.

The common model for Chrono series time is linear. Until a time traveler effects a change in time, nothing is different; the themes of free will that permeate the series support this. Magus is telling that story due to something called time traveler's immunity and the absence of the Grandfather Paradox. When Crono sees the Day of Lavos recording and defeats Lavos, the Grandfather Paradox should cite that he would thus have no memory of the Day of Lavos recording, thus preventing him from defeating Lavos. However, this is not the case due to time traveler's immunity. Time travelers are immune from their own changes in history because as soon as they are displaced outside their normal time, history is rewritten and Chrono Cross teaches us that the former timeline is discarded to the Darkness Beyond Time. The moment Crono landed in 600 A.D., history was forever rewritten, if only by the displacement of a few pebbles in Truce Canyon, and the focus became relative to Crono in that era. The timeline he came from was forever displaced to the Darkness Beyond Time. In this way, Crono could kill his grandfather before his birth and be fine; it is not his true grandfather he is killing, but the grandfather of the new Crono (Crono prime, perhaps) who grew up in this new timeline. Crono as we know him is a total foreigner to this world, his mere presence causing change that dissociates his home world and tosses it in the trash bin. Thus, as long as Magus from a timeline in which Crono hadn't changed the Ocean Palace Incident yet is traveling through time, he will remain constant, and have memory of his origins -- though they may no longer exist in the same way.

~

Yeah, we just need to resolve the Schala/Kid question. It's the worst problem right now.

Reilos

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2005, 08:02:01 pm »
Ummm... still confused...

I knew (or at least speculated) that Schala and Marle were not related.  But I'm confused as how that matters to the original Schala whom would have escaped from the Ocean Palace before Chrono and crew arrived and sorta fouled things up.  Shouldn't that particular timeline have been disregarded into the DBT?  Or are you saying that there are actually two (well, technically three) Schalas?  One that became part of the Time Devourer, and one that originally escaped from the Ocean Palace? :?

ZeaLitY

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2005, 09:28:02 pm »
Because of Time Traveler's Immunity, we sort of have to keep a tab on people to know who is where, and who was discarded. The original Schala was gone, yes. And Crono came along, causing edits to the Ocean Palace Incident, and resulting in Schala's new transport to the Darkness Beyond Time.

Swordmaster

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2005, 09:39:51 pm »
Quote from: ZeaLitY
Because of Time Traveler's Immunity, we sort of have to keep a tab on people to know who is where, and who was discarded. The original Schala was gone, yes. And Crono came along, causing edits to the Ocean Palace Incident, and resulting in Schala's new transport to the Darkness Beyond Time.


Reading this came in my mind that the Magus change to "better" came from him knows that Schala was still alive after the Ocean Palace incident, while Janus have no clues about it or took his Sister as dead leaving him only with his veangence against  Lavos.
Yeah, Magus have a great debt with Crono.

Faulce

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2005, 11:43:07 pm »
well if there is no grandfather paradox in the series, why does Marle disappear when Leene's life is threatened and history is changed?

ZeaLitY

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2005, 11:48:19 pm »
Quote from: Faulce
well if there is no grandfather paradox in the series, why does Marle disappear when Leene's life is threatened and history is changed?


That's one contradiction versus the entire series, which warranted further investigation. 99%, it is an action of the Entity. More at http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=125

Leebot

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2005, 12:34:48 am »
Speaking from the other side of the fourth wall: Different scenarios in CT were written by different people. This is an example of one writer who believed the grandfather paradox would come into play, while the rest of the game assumes it wouldn't.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2005, 12:39:05 am »
Yes; in that case, we're fortunate that the fateful circumstances of that occurrence cause it to lean toward an action of arbitration by some outside force.

Lord J Esq

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The Marle Disappearance Theory
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2005, 10:53:55 pm »
Now, I’m just thinking aloud here, ain’t nothing to it really, but I’ve never liked the explanation that the Entity caused Marle’s disappearance and then timed her subsequent reappearance just so. As the Guru Gaspar put it—at least I think it was him—if you happen to be important to the space-time continuum, you get special…er…privileges in the legers of existence. Consequently—in-game timeflows notwithstanding—going by the plot-timeline by which this importance to the continuum would be judged, it is the case that when Marle disappears neither she nor Crono had done anything that would unequivocally merit them the status of “special.” Really, all they had done at that point was travel through time once each, which on its own I don’t think would be a sufficient condition to merit this specialness in either of them, as evidenced by NPCs such as the Gurus who were edited right along with the timeflows around them at the various milestones in history effected by Crono & Co.

I can’t imagine that the Chronoverse is so poorly designed that it could be undone by a paradox. Either it can handle paradoxes, or paradoxes can’t exist. When Marle was mistaken for her ancestor, the space-time continuum cancelled out this little contradiction by canceling her out, which would have to be the low point of anyone’s day, I’d imagine. Notably, however, the timeflow itself did not seem to be edited around her. This raises the important question: does every change to a timeline result in a timeline split, or is this limited to “special” events. If so, perhaps then the definition of an entity special to the space-time continuum would be that said entity perpetrates a “special event.” Marle’s self-eradication, not being a special event, would not have created a timeline branch; it merely nullified her from the (singular) timeline.

So far, everything is consistent. When Crono & Co. restored history closely enough that Marle would once again come to be born, she was reinstated—which raises important temporal implications as to the nature of matter-energy that is supposedly “erased” from existence by a timeflow edit.

Now, why did Marle not disappear the instant she arrived in the past? Obviously, because if she had done so, she would not have been able to erase herself from the timeline by being discovered! And if you’re not comfortable with that implicit way of looking at it, then by carrying the logic out forward directly, it would stand to reason that the event of Marle’s discovery and mistaking for Queen Leene did not coincide instantaneously with the event by which whomever would have found Leene was informed of Marle’s discovery/mistaking. Thus, to put it in the simplest practical terms, Marle didn’t disappear until the guy who would have found Leene was told that “Leene” had already been found. That gave Marle a few hours in 600 A.D. before her disappearance before Crono’s eyes, which, by reasons of dramatic coincidence and artistic license, happened to exactly coincide with Leene’s rescuer(s) being called off.

A more difficult question is why did Marle not reappear the instant Leene was rescued. My proposal is that the rescued Leene, having just been through a major ordeal that she had not undergone in the more original timeline, was in great personal flux. Traumatic events change us, yes? And with Leene in flux, her destiny was also uncertain, and thus there was no reason Marle should suddenly reappear. So, because we’re dealing with a game of destiny and time travel, I can hold it plausible that the Good Queen Leene did not “click” back into her original course of affairs all at once. This only happened after she returned to the castle and spent some time with the King—at which point, again by reasons of dramatic coincidence and artistic license, happened to exactly coincide with Crono running back up to where Marle had disappeared and seeing her then reappear before his relived and eager eyes.

This would explain Marle’s disappearance, the lack of a timeline branching event, Marle’s reappearance, and the apparent discrepancy between this event and subsequent events that would have had similar effects on party members had they not become  “special” by then, and all without invoking the Entity or other supernatural forces…other than a good dose of wild speculation into the nature of temporal mechanics, and as for that, there ain’t nothing to it. =)

~ Josh

Reilos

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A few questions regarding C. Cross
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2005, 10:41:06 pm »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but... the grandfather paradox... is that the belief that one couldn't go back in time and kill his/her grandparent, because if you did, you'd never be born and thus couldn't be able to go back and kill your grandfather?