Author Topic: Duality and the true nature of Lavos  (Read 1494 times)

RedStar

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Duality and the true nature of Lavos
« on: July 19, 2008, 07:36:06 pm »
I read the article on this site about the Ethics of Lavos, and I did find it interesting.  I hadn't really thought too much about Lavos' intent for its point of view.  It's weird because in basically every other game you understand the main antagonist's goals and why they are trying to achieve them.  Lavos is much different; its intent isn't so clear cut.  I think that looking at the duality of Chrono Cross can shed some light on the matter and raise some interesting questions.

Chrono Cross has a lot of duality in it.  I mean A LOT.  A world with you and one without, Dinopolis being used to counteract Chronopolis, good Serge and bad Serge, Kid and Harle appear to be 2 sides of a similar coin, how one element is strong against or weak to another element, and there are others you can probably think of too.  The game even focuses on the duality of certain characters; Fargo in one world is different than Fargo in another world.  You get a few star levels during the game on Fargo's ship.  The reasons why you are on his ship and the resolutions revolve around the duality of his character.  There's the guy in your home town who is a fisherman in one world and worships the straw man in another.  The game points these out to you, and to me, it is very apparent to me that duality is at the core of this game.  Want to understand why some things are the way they are?  Duality might just be the answer.

If nature is allowed to take its course and Lavos never interrupts the normal flow of events, humans die out or become subservient to the Reptites.  They create Dinopolis and become at one with nature.  The Dragon God is used to control nature, I guess to help terraform areas to make them more inhabitable, prevent natural disasters, that sort of thing.  I believe the Entity is the planet as well, so the Reptites are at one with the Entity.  Makes it look like the Reptites are the good guys, doesn't it?

The humans and Reptites are at war, probably because they have a different nature, different values, and could never get along.  Even Demi-humans aren't accepted by humans; once again it appears that mankind is the problem).  However, the nature and character of Reptites does not appear pleasant (though when two forces are at war with each other it's hard to know what one's character is truly like during peace time).  It should also be noted that snakes and crocodiles and similar types of reptiles do not have a very pleasant nature, and if the Reptites are an evolved form of those creatures, then one would expect the Reptites not to have a pleasant nature either.

At this stage it appears that Reptites are the best species for the planet (since they have a way to control the weather, the Terra Tower has an organic feel to it, they appear to work with the planet rather than just use its resources).  All of this becomes moot when Lavos hits the planet.  Humans become the only sentient beings that can help the planet.  The Entity may prefer the Reptites over us, but Lavos is slowly killing it.

We can try to assign Lavos as being evil and the Entity as good here because the Entity is innocent whereas Lavos is not.  It's a stretch, but I prefer to see it as the Entity representing nature and Lavos representing forces outside of nature.  There's a chapter in 
Chrono Trigger entitled Unnatural Selection.  Natural selection refers to the favorable traits being passed down to future generations and the eventual emergence of a new species.  This whole process was interrupted and the dominant species was decided when Lavos hit the planet, leading to an ice age that killed off the Reptites.  The Frozen Flame also played a big role in this.  Lavos does not represent what is right or proper or pure, whereas the planet does, because it does not interfere with the normal flow of events.

Where does this leave humans?  Humans are always at a crossroads where they can determine what category to be placed in.  Someone like Crono, sacrificing himself for the sake of his friends and the planet can be seen as good.  Someone like Queen Zeal who utilized Lavos, which was slowly killing the planet, to help her subjugate her people, can be seen as bad.  We don't truly fit into either category; it is for each person to decide what kind of person they are.  We ourselves are a duality.

So if someone like Crono can be seen as good, and the Entity can be seen as an innocent being, representing the natural progression of things, and Lavos is intentionally trying to interfere with all that, then I believe we can finally assign Lavos as being evil.  But what made it evil?  Lavos is like the pinnacle of evolution, "pure logic" as I have heard some call it. And how did Lavos corrupt Queen Zeal?

There is a well known line that I think applies perfectly in this case.  Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Lavos is this absolute power.  Just a piece of Lavos, the Frozen Flame, was the cause for our accelerated evolution.  Just a piece!  There's a good chance that it was inside the Mammon Machine, used to commune with Lavos and draw its energy.  Lavos needs to feed of the planet to stay alive; those are some serious carbs!  It can unleash devastating attacks to completely annihilate the surface of the planet.  It can travel through space and survive an impact.  It can manipulate time.  With some help it can evolve into the Time Devourer and threaten all space and time in the entire universe (and perhaps even the other dimensions)!  How much more absolute power can you get than that?

Simply put, Lavos is corrupt.  Whatever it is, however it got to be the way it is, it got corrupted somewhere along the way.  It's angry (that anger corrupted Schala), selfish (killing the planet and its inhabitants), and that power will corrupt others (Schala and Queen Zeal).  The Entity is incorruptible, whereas Lavos is completely corrupt.  The decisions made by Lavos were on made on purpose and reflect its nature.  It isn't just "trying to survive", it is interfering with the course of nature, corrupting those that interact with it, and doing whatever it takes to survive and reproduce.  It will corrupt Schala, one of the nicest characters in the series, in order to become a being that will destroy time and space.  It is very angry, probably resentful, and looking for payback for being beaten.  Nothing will exist any more if it succeeds in its plan.  This to me makes Lavos the truest and purest evil.

Is the Entity the truest and purest good?  No.  Once again it is innocent and is itself just trying to survive.  It does do good things; it takes care of the things that live on the planet, it helped Crono and company in their journey to save it and their friends, and in the Reptite dimension it apparently was at one with their species.

The Dragons were seen as evil in the game, but they too had been corrupted by Lavos; we cannot know what their true nature was like.  It's interesting to see the Reptites as good, or at least less evil than they have been portrayed to be.  In short, Lavos is a corrupt being who performed his actions with the clear intent to do whatever it took to survive.  When it was defeated it began a process to become a being to destroy everyone and everything.  Everyone who came in contact with it became corrupt.  It is the opposite of what the planet and its inhabitants represent.  It is an act of defiance against innocence, the natural progression of things, selflessness, and just about anything "good" you can think of.  Lavos is a duality of all that exists; it tried to destroy all that exists.

If you read all that, thank you for reading it, and let me know if you have anything to add, anything you question or don't agree with, or if you actually agree with me.

OverlordMikey

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Re: Duality and the true nature of Lavos
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 06:06:03 pm »
This is so human, I don't wanna be rude sorry. I don't think Lavos is evil. Lavos is only corrupt as the Time Devour as Lavos it is no diffrent then humans, reptites, or mystics. Yes Lavos chooses to do things! But these things it does are needed for its survival and the survial of its future, just as Chrono and co did what they did for there future. Schala and Lavos Merge and anger consumes Schala, tell me wouldn't you be anger, your basicly getting ready to give birth (since that's all Lavos has been doing, excpt gathering DNA to improve the children.) and humans keep getting in your way! I'd be p**sed! Oh an Nature, Lavos is perfectly natural! You think teh Planet say, ouch this hurts, hmmmm I don't wanna spend 1000s apon 1000s of years recovering! Time Travel is natural! Your argueing Lavos isn't natural well ignoring that what happend with Lavos was completely natural! it smashed into the planet and begn doing what it would do to any planet.

Quote from: RedStar
Is the Entity the truest and purest good?  No.  Once again it is innocent and is itself just trying to survive.  It does do good things; it takes care of the things that live on the planet, it helped Crono and company in their journey to save it and their friends, and in the Reptite dimension it apparently was at one with their species.
Same thing with Lavos, trying to save it's self. Hell in Trigger the planet was being selfish! Lavos never showed a hint of being selfish! It lnly show determination to complete it Life cycle and give birth. The Planet would have recoverd it just hated the pain.
Your arguement for the planet works for Lavos.
Quote from: Me
Lavos is itself just trying to survive.

Shadow D. Darkman

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Re: Duality and the true nature of Lavos
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2008, 08:51:40 pm »
Just read this and for a perspective story, look up "Lavoid Trigger" on IcyBrian. I personally thought it was a good fanfic.

Xenterex

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Re: Duality and the true nature of Lavos
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2008, 12:31:39 pm »
The attribute of trying to create labels for simplifying understand certainly is a human trait.  However, too often are we focused on trying to limit our perspectives to a bilateral structure, when more often than not, things simply aren't one way or another, even within reasonably narrow margins. The focal aspect of Cross, and even Trigger, isn't even duality, its ambiguity, which you were closer to in your opening paragraph.

Almost everything about Trigger challenges our perception of seeing things in two sides and tries to create a much more vivid 'grey scale'  Crono has the choice to have high moral character, or be a potentially nefarious person, and yet still possibly be considered a 'hero.'  We may often group 'hero' and 'good' together, but those aren't always right. 

Is Lavos evil?  Breaking 'evil' down into its many meanings offer different aspects to how this effects Lavos.

Is he immoral and/or malevolent?  He hardly strikes me as sadistic, I don't think he's having illicit sex with anyone,  and he certainly isn't peddling off drugs. While he may be more than 6 feet under, I don't think he's culling the souls of men to wage war on the heavens either.  Maybe extracting DNA from the dead remains of every creature,  but who's to say the planet/entity isn't any different in its utilization of biodegradation?

Is he something that's harmful or undesired?  By perception, yes he is, and yet, no he isn't.  Yes?  Well, he seems to be causing the 'entity' harm, and the deplorable future that awaits is undesired, so effectively, he's evil right? 
But without Lavos, mankind apparently dies out.  To 'us', that isn't so desirable.  One of the most interesting aspects to this is that mankind isn't doomed in the future from Lavos' attack.  1999-2300 is quite a span of time, and part of the events that occurs in the future is that there is still hope  (those seeds)  The undesired element in this future is the quality of life.  Here, the malefactor is the robots, an unnatural creation of mankind.  Lavos seems to only strike out against mankind when they pose the means to cause him harm.  The Motherbrain seems to think/calculate that the planet could effectively continue to support Lavos and if needed, its children.  That is, once mankind is gone.  If Crono and company had seen the bleak aftermath generations after Lavos attacks, would their focus then be on saving the past instead of the future?  Probably not, as mankind has thrived and survived up to and beyond their generation.  The same could possibly still occur in the future too, as there is still hope.  If mankind's absence would give Lavos uncontested reign of survival, why let mankind exist at all?

So the key factors left in question here are Lavos' depravation of the Zealean family?  From what I gather from CTDS is that the story is shifting to put more of the blame of the dream devourer on Schala's head.  She's that one that claims to want to destroy everything.  She's the female representative of a species known for their emotions.  Frankly, Lavos doesn't seem to exhibit any emotion, and somehow I don't think it carries the same motherly vengeance in regards to
its children since it reproduces asexually.  So, the merge between the two was probably an undesired result with undesired qualities mixing together to bring about an ultimate form of destruction.

So what about Lavos and queen Zeal, or even Dalton?  I get the impression that while Zeal did exhibit drastic change of character from her growing 'dependance' on Lavos, I think she was fairly power hungry before she connected to him in the first place.  Note the state of her kingdom – peaceful and protected with the encouragement for the choice people to sleep their days away in happiness.  Smother-mother.  My guess, particularly due to the distinctive separation of peoples in this era, is that generations before knew war, and that her husband was killed, rather than simply died.  Either that, or she was clingy and attached to the King so it doesn't matter how he left life.  In either case, I'd say that in his absence, Zeal overcompensates by seeking to protect her people as best as possible, enlists the aid of the gurus, and its that pursuit, they stumble upon Lavos.  While she herself was corrupt, I think her intentions were still effectively 'good' as she sought to bring prosperity to her people.  It's not like she said "screw everyone else, I'm going to be happy alone for eternity." She wanted others to share in this too, as seen her in offers.  I think her neglect of her children was more due to her emotional instability, which then seems to be exhibited by Schala in her connection with Lavos.