Author Topic: Florida school systems are fucked up.  (Read 1122 times)

x_XTacTX_x

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 10:36:02 pm »
xD that pic always cracks me up...

Thought

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MsBlack

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2008, 09:20:48 pm »
So students will have less time to work at a job. It sucks for those who, for one reason or another, need the money, but society's concern with teenagers shouldn't be about their economic contributions but about their education. It would actually be desirable if fewer teenagers wasted their energy on "jobs." Unfortunately, as mentioned, this screws people who actually need the money.

You merely state that it would be better to hinder the liberty to work of 'teenagers' and even acknowledge how it would be less than beneficial to some of 'em.

... sports are also not really the concern that society should have for teenagers. Sure, they teach valuable "life lessons," but so does band, theater, most clubs, etc. Loosing sports wonít be the end of the world.

You imply "band, theater, most clubs etc." are necessarily higher priorities than sport. A dubious claim you failed to support. You also seem to overlook the benefits of sport other than 'life lessons'.

That's Wha.

BROJ

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2008, 02:09:13 am »
So students will have less time to work at a job. It sucks for those who, for one reason or another, need the money, but society's concern with teenagers shouldn't be about their economic contributions but about their education. It would actually be desirable if fewer teenagers wasted their energy on "jobs." Unfortunately, as mentioned, this screws people who actually need the money.

You merely state that it would be better to hinder the liberty to work of 'teenagers' and even acknowledge how it would be less than beneficial to some of 'em.
Huh? What Thought said is, rephrased and simplified: Education is more important in the long run than a summer job, save those who need the money for survival. This stems from the fact that education is more demanded due to academic inflation and, as such, is slightly more important than work experience these days.

... sports are also not really the concern that society should have for teenagers. Sure, they teach valuable "life lessons," but so does band, theater, most clubs, etc. Loosing sports wonít be the end of the world.

You imply "band, theater, most clubs etc." are necessarily higher priorities than sport. A dubious claim you failed to support. You also seem to overlook the benefits of sport other than 'life lessons'.

That's Wha.
No, he implied preforming arts and clubs are an 'equivalent' alternative to sports in general and, thus, equidistant in terms of loss. There is, however, as you alluded, health benefits to sports in addition to the leadership and teamwork skills that sports foster. However, on the other side of the coin, so to speak, there are various benefits of preforming arts and clubs, such as fostering the various forms of individual and collaborative thought(which is the same thing as leadership and teamwork skills if I'm thinking correctly) as well as being able to emulate the health aspects vis ŗ vis activities such as martial arts clubs, dance, and others parallel.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 02:15:21 am by BROJ »

MsBlack

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2008, 02:08:00 pm »
Huh? What Thought said is, rephrased and simplified: Education is more important in the long run than a summer job, save those who need the money for survival. This stems from the fact that education is more demanded due to academic inflation and, as such, is slightly more important than work experience these days.

And academic inflation strongly encourages tertiary education, for which many students will need funds. Those from poorer families may not be able to rely on relatives' funding, scholarships or so on and may not wish to take out a loan. Thus, they get a job. Besides that, jobs increase disposable income, invariably increasing quality of life. For these people (and probably others), Thought's suggestion precludes working and optimum practical education, which is the case you're making. Besides, what if the student wishes to work (heh) their way up from flipping burgers to managing a fast-food restaurant and perhaps beyond, for example?

No, he implied preforming arts and clubs are an 'equivalent' alternative to sports in general and, thus, equidistant in terms of loss. There is, however, as you alluded, health benefits to sports in addition to the leadership and teamwork skills that sports foster. However, on the other side of the coin, so to speak, there are various benefits of preforming arts and clubs, such as fostering the various forms of individual and collaborative thought(which is the same thing as leadership and teamwork skills if I'm thinking correctly) as well as being able to emulate the health aspects vis ŗ vis activities such as martial arts clubs, dance, and others parallel.

His saying that sports 'are not really concerns that society should have for teenagers' -- but that "band, theater, most clubs etc." are -- exactly implies something that makes these things supersede sport (which -- as well as being engaged in outside of school -- is often engaged in at schools), because otherwise he would not have singled sport out. This implication isn't self-evident, and needs elaboration. What it seems to come down to is discriminating between leisure activities without giving a reason. How you managed to infer that discrimination implied perceived equality, I don't know.

There's other holes I could probably pick, but perhaps the points I've raised will demonstrate the unobviousness of -- if not lack of -- practicality in Thought's suggestion.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 02:13:33 pm by MsBlack »

BROJ

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2008, 03:51:45 pm »
And academic inflation strongly encourages tertiary education, for which many students will need funds. Those from poorer families may not be able to rely on relatives' funding, scholarships or so on and may not wish to take out a loan.
On the contrary, financial need is a prime requisite for a good portion for financial aid (including 'full-rides' and loan forgivenesses). And besides, I don't come from a poorer family, but that doesn't mean I'm expecting my family to pitch a dime my way--I worked my ass of in school to qualify for grants, scholarships, and other forms of aid. At any rate, financial reasons is a poor excuse for not going to higher education, and a job, while a handy supplement, will only interfere with a full-time student's studies.

Besides, what if the student wishes to work (heh) their way up from flipping burgers to managing a fast-food restaurant and perhaps beyond, for example?
True enough, that is their prerogative, but that doesn't change the rub of the point.

His saying that sports 'are not really concerns that society should have for teenagers' -- but that "band, theater, most clubs etc." are -- exactly implies something that makes these things supersede sport (which -- as well as being engaged in outside of school -- is often engaged in at schools), because otherwise he would not have singled sport out. This implication isn't self-evident, and needs elaboration. What it seems to come down to is discriminating between leisure activities without giving a reason. How you managed to infer that discrimination implied perceived equality, I don't know.
*sigh* :| I have the feeling I'm not going to be able to hit this one home... but I'll try anyway. I'll only afford a simple statement for you: The fact of the matter is this is not a war between activities, but rather simply stating: Activity1=Activity2; Activity1,2!=Academics

There's other holes I could probably pick, but perhaps the points I've raised will demonstrate the unobviousness of -- if not lack of -- practicality in Thought's suggestion.
And I'll leave the rest to Thought, if you decide to pester the point further.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 04:02:11 pm by BROJ »

placidchap

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2008, 04:16:54 pm »
Full time studies may not be the best option.  Working and going to post-secondary school is not a bad thing, and in my opinion helps build a healthy balance and teh ability to have superior time-management skills over one who focuses on an "all or nothing" approach.  One should diverisfy their time and energy. 

Activity 1 + Activity 2 + Work + School = well rounded individual.  Of course, only if you are the kind of person who can handle that. 

So at the end of the day, do what works for you...

Ramsus

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2008, 06:22:05 pm »
Read The Shame of the Nation by Jonathan Kozol, and then we'll talk about fucked up school systems.

MsBlack

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2008, 06:29:44 pm »
I finally refound a website I'd come across before, and which I've been searching for at least since Thought's original post decrying the current state of homework use and probably since shortly before I originally found it:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm

Ah, here's another interesting link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaching_as_a_Subversive_Activity
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 06:32:09 pm by MsBlack »

Thought

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2008, 07:40:40 pm »
Apparently I should have checked back on this thread a while ago. But when people start replying with pictures of British actors, that usually means intelligent conversation has died so hopefully you'll forgive me for being so tardy.

You merely state that it would be better to hinder the liberty to work of 'teenagers' and even acknowledge how it would be less than beneficial to some of 'em.

I suppose one could look at it as hindering the liberty to work, or one could also look at it as promoting the liberty to pursue an education. Or, indeed, one could find it hilarious that we are even talking about a teenager's liberty to conveniently pursue a job when they are denied the liberty to determine there education, to speak freely, and so many other "liberties." We're are arguing about a bucket of water while in the middle of the ocean.

But perhaps we are disagreeing on what behaviors we, as a society in general, should wish to promote in teenagers. Admittedly, I assumed that we would all agree that society should promote teenagers to behave in a way that would enhance there education. Following from that, if society must choose between a teenager's education and a teenager's minimum wage job, society should choose in favor of education. Picard seemed to disagree with that, which is what confused The Doctor.

... sports are also not really the concern that society should have for teenagers. Sure, they teach valuable "life lessons," but so does band, theater, most clubs, etc. Loosing sports wonít be the end of the world.

You imply "band, theater, most clubs etc." are necessarily higher priorities than sport. A dubious claim you failed to support. You also seem to overlook the benefits of sport other than 'life lessons'.

That's Wha.

I said that if sports were lost while other activities remained, it would not be the end of the world. In no way does that indicate that the removal of sports from a teenager's calendar would somehow be good or that it wouldn't matter at all. Why did I single out sports? Look back at the original post:

2) Students who are in sports teams (again, like I) won't have any free time left. With the load of homework from advanced classes, along with practice/games, won't be able to have any kind of social life.

Tact brought up sports, I replied that if one had to cut back on sports, provided other options were still available, one could retain many of the benefits that sports provided (not all, but being in band provides benefits that sports doesn't, so it all sort of equals out). At least at my old high school, theater was a class (so it is an activity that provides many of the benefits of a sport without taking up as much afterschool time) and band practice generally lasted about 2 hours a day, where sports practice lasted 3+ hours a day. Admittedly, it was foolish of me to assume that everyone's high school would be similarly situated, but if they were, then one could get many of the same benefits with less time investment.

Though perhaps you donít agree that activities like band, theater, or clubs provide the analogous opportunities of socialization, leadership, and teamwork.

And academic inflation strongly encourages tertiary education, for which many students will need funds. Those from poorer families may not be able to rely on relatives' funding, scholarships or so on and may not wish to take out a loan. Thus, they get a job. Besides that, jobs increase disposable income, invariably increasing quality of life. For these people (and probably others), Thought's suggestion precludes working and optimum practical education, which is the case you're making. Besides, what if the student wishes to work (heh) their way up from flipping burgers to managing a fast-food restaurant and perhaps beyond, for example?

Taking out a loan for education is one of the smartest loans a person can get. The extra money from working a part time job in order to not need a loan pales in comparison to the extra money one would get from a good degree from a good university. And individuals coming from a disadvantaged background are eligible for a whole slew of funding that others are not; but what they need are good grades, not minimum wage work experience.

If such funding was unavailable, The Doctor might understand Picard's dismay.

There's other holes I could probably pick, but perhaps the points I've raised will demonstrate the unobviousness of -- if not lack of -- practicality in Thought's suggestion.

Well, fair play to you, my "suggestion" (which was really more of an analysis regarding the possible implications of the OP's news article) wasn't meant to be practical (or impractical). I barely consider the practicality of offering a bright side of things perspective.

Full time studies may not be the best option.  Working and going to post-secondary school is not a bad thing, and in my opinion helps build a healthy balance and teh ability to have superior time-management skills over one who focuses on an "all or nothing" approach.  One should diverisfy their time and energy. 

Activity 1 + Activity 2 + Work + School = well rounded individual.  Of course, only if you are the kind of person who can handle that. 

So at the end of the day, do what works for you...

You should read StregnthsFinder 2.0 by Tom Rath. The book is the result of research conducted by the Gallup organization and essentially argues that everything you just said is wrong, will prevent a person from obtaining success, and will make the person miserable.

To be fair, I am not sure I agree with Rath (still digesting it), but it is a very interesting approach.


And since it appears that everyone is posting about books on education...

My Freshman Year: What a Professor Learned by Becoming a Student by "Rebekah Nathan"

An anthropology professor essentially goes undercover at her own university to observe student culture. It is absolutely wonderful and I cannot recommend it enough for high schoolers going into college, college students, college graduates, parents, teachers, etc. The author identifies numerous interesting themes in student culture that are well worth your time (such as college students focus on developing individuality but do so by conforming to set expectations).

MsBlack

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2008, 08:49:05 pm »
Or, indeed, one could find it hilarious that we are even talking about a teenager's liberty to conveniently pursue a job when they are denied the liberty to determine there education, to speak freely, and so many other "liberties." We're are arguing about a bucket of water while in the middle of the ocean.

Well obviously (actually, apparently not obviously) the existence of 'greater' wrongs doesn't mean 'smaller' wrongs cease to be wrong.

But perhaps we are disagreeing on what behaviors we, as a society in general, should wish to promote in teenagers. Admittedly, I assumed that we would all agree that society should promote teenagers to behave in a way that would enhance there education. Following from that, if society must choose between a teenager's education and a teenager's minimum wage job, society should choose in favor of education.

So how do you decide whether society should choose in favour of education?

I said that if sports were lost while other activities remained, it would not be the end of the world. In no way does that indicate that the removal of sports from a teenager's calendar would somehow be good or that it wouldn't matter at all. Why did I single out sports? Look back at the original post:

2) Students who are in sports teams (again, like I) won't have any free time left. With the load of homework from advanced classes, along with practice/games, won't be able to have any kind of social life.

Ah; now I see! My bad.

Tact brought up sports, I replied that if one had to cut back on sports, provided other options were still available, one could retain many of the benefits that sports provided (not all, but being in band provides benefits that sports doesn't, so it all sort of equals out). At least at my old high school, theater was a class (so it is an activity that provides many of the benefits of a sport without taking up as much afterschool time) and band practice generally lasted about 2 hours a day, where sports practice lasted 3+ hours a day. Admittedly, it was foolish of me to assume that everyone's high school would be similarly situated, but if they were, then one could get many of the same benefits with less time investment.

Indeed, I've never even heard of any club that I can recall of that has lasted three hours. I thought that sports and other out-of-school-hours, extra-curricular activities would be equal in terms of practicality, making it seem like an arbitrary singling out of sports.

Though perhaps you donít agree that activities like band, theater, or clubs provide the analogous opportunities of socialization, leadership, and teamwork.

I don't see how these particular examples would provide leadership skills, but I shan't take you up on that, as there are undoubtedly examples that do.

Taking out a loan for education is one of the smartest loans a person can get. The extra money from working a part time job in order to not need a loan pales in comparison to the extra money one would get from a good degree from a good university. And individuals coming from a disadvantaged background are eligible for a whole slew of funding that others are not; but what they need are good grades, not minimum wage work experience.

Agreed.

Well, fair play to you, my "suggestion" (which was really more of an analysis regarding the possible implications of the OP's news article) wasn't meant to be practical (or impractical). I barely consider the practicality of offering a bright side of things perspective.

Really, I'm not disputing your claims, but simply skeptical that the matter is as simple as your seemingly nonchalant first post in this thread suggested, and wish to test them. And, although I failed to consider your referring to sport individually in context, you also seemed to downplay the significance of sport in a general context without considering the uniqueness of sport (specific skills, athletic prowess and competition are not present in any other activities like they are in sports, so far as I can tell).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2008, 08:53:04 pm by MsBlack »

placidchap

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2008, 10:12:16 am »
You should read StregnthsFinder 2.0 by Tom Rath. The book is the result of research conducted by the Gallup organization and essentially argues that everything you just said is wrong, will prevent a person from obtaining success, and will make the person miserable.

To be fair, I am not sure I agree with Rath (still digesting it), but it is a very interesting approach.

I may just have to since it completely disagrees with what I had said.  Although...I was speaking from personal experience on that.  I may not be completely happy (who is?), but I am not miserable.  It is too early to tell if I will attain the success they mentioned, I feel I am well on the right path.  And the reasons of unhappiness stem from how and where I was raised, not from multitasking.  Anyways, I'll read it when I have a chance...but not right now since I am at work and I have to study for an exam next week! ho ho.

Thought

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2008, 11:50:48 am »
Well obviously (actually, apparently not obviously) the existence of 'greater' wrongs doesn't mean 'smaller' wrongs cease to be wrong.

That something is wrong doesn't mean it ceases to be hilarious. But I agree, great wrongs don't make smaller ones less wrong. YetÖ if we have to choose between the two, take the smaller wrong over the greater.

So how do you decide whether society should choose in favour of education?

In favour of education over what, exactly?

Education in favour of immediate employment? Well, it produces a more-skilled labor force, for one. With an education, one will earn more money over the course of one's lifetime, thereby being able to both produce and purchase more goods and services, stimulating the entire economy, allowing more individuals to have a higher standard of living.

Education in favour of sports? Basically the same reason as above. Perhaps some sports talent will go undeveloped, and sports are a major industry in the united states, but it makes up for that in other economic stimulation.

Mind you, however, that society isn't always right in its implementation. Education is more important, but a specific implementation of an education system might actually produce fewer benefits. In a perfect world, a good education is always a good investment and so, in a perfect world, a good society would always be interested in a good education.

Though perhaps you donít agree that activities like band, theater, or clubs provide the analogous opportunities of socialization, leadership, and teamwork.

I don't see how these particular examples would provide leadership skills, but I shan't take you up on that, as there are undoubtedly examples that do.

Interesting... now I know you didn't take me up on that, but I find it very interesting that you don't see leadership roles in these activities. Why don't you think that these things involve leadership?

It seems clear that I do see such a role in these activities, but perhaps the opportunities for leadership aren't as obvious as I think they are (or perhaps we have different ideas of what leadership is)?

Every club I was ever a part of had a club president, and most had a vice president, a treasurer, and other such leadership roles. They were usually more varied in their activities than a sport so even those without a fancy title could still propose an idea and take ownership of it, leading it (and the rest of the club) to implementation.

Band I can see being a little more dubious. I don't have personal inside experience, but I was always under the impression that First Chairs had a small leadership role (certainly not anywhere near the same level as a team captain in sports of a club president, but still a leadership role). First Violin, for example, to my understand is the one who sets the pace for the rest of the band (the position of conductor evolving from that, historically speaking).

Marching bands have a few more options for leadership, as the color guard usually had a student "leader" and the various formations that they might take were also developed by students.

Theater is the one I can see the most as having no obvious leadership role, especially if it is part of a class. The teacher is usually the one who decides the play, organizes it, and so on and so forth. But there are the various duties that the teacher has to delegate almost out of necessity. S/he might decide what the set will be, but usually that actual implementation is given to a team of students (and which usually produces a team leader). As for those acting, no single individual might become an official leader but it seems like in rehearsals (especially ones not directly overseen by the teacher) leadership roles still develop as each individual attempts to move the group to develop that individuals part (though the leadership shifts back and forth between the members of that group). And certainly, acting helps an individual develop confidence and public speaking skills, hallmark skills of leaders.

Really, I'm not disputing your claims, but simply skeptical that the matter is as simple as your seemingly nonchalant first post in this thread suggested, and wish to test them. And, although I failed to consider your referring to sport individually in context, you also seemed to downplay the significance of sport in a general context without considering the uniqueness of sport (specific skills, athletic prowess and competition are not present in any other activities like they are in sports, so far as I can tell).

True, sports does teach specific skills, and in all likelihood I am undervaluing them, but what skills do they teach that are unique to them and also useful? For example, throwing a football, shotput, or a baseball accurately and with power is certainly a skill, but a rather useless one outside the context. To be fair, teamwork is a very valuable skill that sports teach, but I'd argue that one could develop that skill just as well in theater, a club, or even band.

Athletic prowess is very nice, but I'd argue being part of a marching band requires a good deal of athletic ability as well (and some clubs do as well, though certainly not as a whole; my old high school actually had a paintball club and a rock climbing club). So that really isn't unique to sports, though sports certainly are more universal in developing it. However, in turn, why is that so desirable? It is wonderful if you can run a 6 minute mile, but that doesn't really relate to the rest of one's life all that much. Or perhaps you didn't mean specifically prowess but athletic engagement? Getting exercise (which most sports certainly provide) often, and developing that as a habit, is certainly something everyone should do and it is one of the things that doesn't have a good alternative in other activities.

As for competition, I would argue how useful that actually is (though I suspect my own position on the matter is more of a result from my personality than real objective analysis). There is some benefit to it, admittedly, but I don't think enough to make it a significant loss. Indeed, a little less competition in society (such as between political parties, people groups, and nations) might be rather nice.

I may just have to since it completely disagrees with what I had said.

I suppose it might be nice if I actually explained the philosophy a little (gives you more reason to actually check out the book).

Basically, the author argues that it is more important to develop your strengths than to worry about becoming a well rounded individual (since being well rounded requires on to work on weaknesses to). If you are great at organizing things but suck as coming up with ideas, the book argues that you shouldn't worry; focus on developing your organizational skills even more, rather than trying to become the idea man. You'll be happier since you will be doing something you are good at and you'll stand out from the crowd more, making you an invaluable person to be on a team.

Or in other words, if you love to write and hate math, develop your writing skills and ignore how much you suck at math. People remember Tolkien, Lewis, Rowling, King, and other authors because of their abilities to write, not because they were math wiz's.

Essentially, develop your strength and work around your weaknesses.

MsBlack

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Re: Florida school systems are fucked up.
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2008, 07:56:52 pm »
You've supported your original statement under scrutiny. I feel I ought to apologise for 'facepalming' you, Thought. 'Twas brash, poor form and uncalled for.