Author Topic: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame  (Read 6346 times)

Oatmeal1209

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2008, 05:18:14 pm »
That's interesting. Ayla did use her fists, and even the sword wielders had to get close to it. Even though Lavos is defeated there are a lot of people that still came into contact with it that would have received the radiation effects. Is that why even after Lavos is supposedly destroyed nothing really changes in the main timeline except that there is no longer Lavos? If you have a source giving off radiation that causes mutations and you remove the source, the mutation caused by the radiation is still there. A very interesting idea.
Having thought about it a bit, I'm starting to lean towards 2 ideas: -that Lavos might have intentionally introduced the Frozen Flame into the world (though I'm unsure if there's any evidence that really nulls that theory) or -that the Frozen Flame could maybe be a kind of physical residue from the Mammon Machine.  It did absorb Lavos' energy, and being a machine, it could have had some sort of exhaust.  It looks more and more like the FF and Lavos' shell aren't the same, people touch the FF, crazy shit happens; people touch Lavos, nothing noticable happens.  People stick knives into the Mammon Machine, crazy shit happens; people stick swords into Lavos, nothing noticable happens.  So the FF might be a physical manifestation of Lavos' "radiation" or energy (probably the same that the Mammon Machine sucked up).

ZeaLitY

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2009, 02:20:04 am »
I'm still reading the original post, but the basis of the splinter comes from Radical Dreamers:

Quote
The Frozen Flame is more than just an object. It's not of this world.
It descended from the heavens long ago, part of a huge meteorite.

We can generally trust Magil to know what he's talking about, and he clearly identifies the Flame as separate from Lavos during (or perhaps even before) the crash. Of course, one can still argue that the Frozen Flame could have been "part" of Lavos for eons before eventually separating itself.

Nonetheless, the idea that it separated itself is plausible and sort of tantalizing in regard to the idea that the Frozen Flame is a purposeful creation. Either situation is possible, so we'll have to integrate this into analysis. It is worth mentioning that the biggest check against purposeful creation is Lavos's apparent attempt to regain the Frozen Flame from Chronopolis by pulling it to 12000 B.C., but this event is so mysterious that we can't really make any conclusions.

utunnels

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2009, 02:42:07 am »
I think the fact that Frozen Flame is Lavos's boby part was first metioned in CC.

In RD, Magil only says a huge rock(meteorite). If he knows the whole history of Zeal, he should know it is part of Lavos. But he doesn't metion its name.
In CT, it is not metioned that they used the Flame to contact with Lavos, but Mammon Machine which was made from Dream Stone.
The Flame in RD look like a red gemstone after all, unlike in CC, it can shift its shape.
Lynx says when used with the Time Egg, the time can be rewind thus the history can be changed. It remind me of the Mastermune in CC, when you have the Time Egg, you can travel to the past with other party members. The weapon is related to Masamune, which is made from dreamstone.

I know that can't prove the Flame is not part of Lavos in RD, but maybe that's only the prototype of the theory since they had only 2-3 months to finish this game.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 02:44:34 am by utunnels »

Zergplex

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2009, 01:53:00 pm »
To touch on Boo's question earlier, you do indeed see the destroyed Mammon Machine standing behind Zeal during the Black Omen incident. You also face off with an apparently fully functioning Mammon Machine in something graphically similiar to Lavos's 'pocket dimension'.

The easiest explanation (though it discounts TTI) is that Schala and the Mammon Machine were tossed through a portal together in the original timeline (as we have seen), in the timeline changed by Crono and Co the broken Mammon Machine stays in the Ocean Palace, which Zeal/Lavos later use as the basis for the Black Omen. The problem with this theory, if you follow the compendium theories, is that it discounts TTI and TB. Technically the destroyed Mammon Machine in the Black Omen should already have been Time Bastarded, as it had already traveled through time/dimensions to the DBT at that point in time error. Unless the DBT doesn't count as time travel and isn't subject to TB, but thats would open it's own can of worms methinks.

A more complex explanation is that the Black Omen is all a dream of either Zeal or Lavos, several pieces of dialogue from Zeal, the party, and the Nu's inside corroborate this. If this is true then the destroyed Mammon Machine within the Black Omen (and indeed everything inside the Black Omen other then Zeal herself) has no relevance to the actual Mammon Machine sent to the DBT.

Magus_Brokenhart

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 03:03:57 am »
The Frozen Flame could have fallen from the Meteorite Lavos due to the friction of the atmosphere. Maybe humanity was not destined to evolve very far. Humans might not have found it until Three million years before Zeal. Could Lavos reproduce by budding? Would a torn piece of his shell live on and have its own mind?

Here's some metaphors that could mean something...In Greek mythology, humanity was in the dark until Prometheus brought fire to them. Humanity changed drastically then. Humanity was in the dark, until Lavos brought the Frozen Flame to them, which drastically changed their structure. In the Prometheus legend, God did not want humanity to go beyond their boundaries. In a way, the planet could be considered god, and not want humanity to have reached such a level.

 Zeal played with "fire", and it got burned.




RedStar

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2009, 06:40:24 am »
Great ideas and points guys.  I was ready to post about this sort of topic when I saw this topic here.  I've got some ideas about how the Frozen Flame works with all of this.  I posted in another topic because some ideas go off topic and bring up more unrelated questions (like we don't have enough questions just on this topic alone).  The link is http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6810.0.html let me know if you think my ideas are plausible or they don't work.

Thought

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2009, 03:53:22 pm »
Just an update: under the assumption that the FF is not a random fragment of Lavos but the result of his defeat, the FF's creation would be placed in 1999 AD, per the Pocket Dimension amalgamation thread.

This is important because of an oddity of the FF existing prior to 1020 in CC. If it exists in 1020, then there are two Frozen Flames in Home World and Two Frozen Flames in Another World. One from Chronopolis/the Dead Sea, brought from the future, and one in the regular world leftover from Lavos. Even if the FF is a random splinter, two should exist in each world. It is only if the FF was created in 1999 (and then taken back to 12,000 BCish by the time crash) that we get only one in each world.

GenesisOne

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2009, 03:54:09 pm »

So, if the PD theory cannot be used, then what exactly was the party pulled into when they first encountered Lavos back in the Undersea Palace in 12,000 B.C.?

And what was Marle pulled into when the party first went to 600 A.D.?  We know the Grandfather Paradox cannot possibly work in this scenario, so where did she end up?


Thought

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2009, 05:49:49 pm »
Marle ended up in the DBT, which isn't a pocket dimension. Was there a theory stating that she should have been pulled into a pocket dimension?

As for what the party was pulled into when they first encounter Lavos, if I recall the pocket dimension disucssion thread correctly, they weren't pulled anywhere; that awas a real world battle, whereas every other time they are pulled into the future (1999 to be exact).

The Secret Skeleton

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2009, 07:53:49 pm »
It was always my belief, from when I first played Chrono Cross, that the Frozen Flame was a tool Lavos used to manipulate the creatures on the planet so as to gain their DNA.

At the end of Chrono Trigger you discovered that Lavos' agenda was simply to take in all the DNA from all of the inhabitants of the planet, and that terror was expressed that all creatures had been raised like cattle.

A good reference to this would come from the game Xenogears, and though primarily written by Soraya Saga, Masato Kato wrote parts of it.  Chrono Cross was written after Xenogears...I will explain.

In Xenogears the presence of the Zohar on the planet permeated it with an energy presence called Phenomenon Phase Shift.  This power, though alien to the planet, was recognized by those living on the planet and they were able to utilize it to build machines.  Eventually, though exposure to this power, humans evolved to the point where they could manipulate Ether Powers (Magic).  Further still, Phenomenon Phase Shift governs more than simple fuel and magic needs, it can literally alter destiny if a strong enough willpower presents the desire.  Therefore, if someone of strong enough Will wants something bad enough, the Zohar will calculate all possible phenomenon eliminating them down to where only the desired phenomenon still exists.

This is a very similar situation as in the Chrono games.  Is the term Chrono Trigger (as originally presented in Chrono Cross, written after Xenogears) relevant to this example?

Let us assume that Lavos is from a species that literally exists as a parasite of planets.  If Lavos does in fact grow from the absorption of DNA, then simply dwelling within a planet for ages is a poor way to farm it.  The Frozen Flame was inserted in the world, likely in the Primeval Era, where it set about "manipulating" the creatures on the planet for its own purposes.  The fact that it eradicated the Reptites first would present an intelligence perhaps recognizing better potential for longevity from the humans.  Later, in Zeal, society had reached a zenith, but Lavos was not full, so he destroyed Zeal.

I believe that the Frozen Flame exists solely to get Lavos food via the manipulation of time, species, and destiny.

The term "Arbiter of the Flame" can very likely be directly tied to a living creature on the planet that would best serve Lavos' will, such as the Queen of Zeal, and drive the to acts in the service of Lavos.  When the Queen, "regained her humanity" she was taken from this service and thusly granted her own will (or she was killed).

Another similarity, which will only serve to grant credibility for my beliefs, is that in Xenogears Solaris uses the Memory Cubes (save points) to gather information about the surface dwelling humans.  In Chrono Cross you find out the Memory Pyramids serve and identical purpose to Chronopolis.

I am not saying that CC ripped off Xenogears, I am stating that it is likely that Kato's influence on the plot of Xenogears he again used when putting together CC.

So here is a diagram of my logic:

1.  Lavos enters planet, dispatches Frozen Flame. 
2.  Frozen Flame examines all current factors on the planet and then takes steps to isolate those with the most possibility and nurture them.
3.  Lavos is maintained throughout the timeline by the subtle actions of the Frozen Flame.
4.  A fully matured Lavos emerges from the depths of the planet, discharges its progeny, and its life-cycle is completed.

Now, in opposition to this, we can state that the -Entity- is some manner of ethereal sentience of the planet itself.  To defend itself it determines key places in its own timeline that can be used to disrupt the destiny manipulating actions of the Frozen Flame and then elects to aggregate its will around a single individual (Chrono).

This person could very likely have been engineered by the planet itself.  Regardless, it gives this individual the ability to access the timeline in different points in such a way as to first educate, and then empower the individual.  The plot points of Chrono Trigger and their convenient order is even noticed in-game by Lucca who develops the theory of the Entity.

Not every single action from the two games would be a literal action taken by one of these two parties, but it is clear that manipulation from one of these two forces is responsible for very many of the greater changes to the planet's history particularly regarding the presented timelines in the game.

In Chrono Cross the mission of Lavos will have changed from Trigger, and of course the mission of the Frozen Flame will have as well, though a very similar logic can be ascribed.

Chrono Trigger = Keeping Lavos alive.
Chrono Cross = Bringing Lavos back to life.

There are of course far more many mechanics to this world such as a changeable timeline and parallel dimensions.  The origin of these mechanics cannot be divined from the games themselves, but what is stated are some of the methods by with which to manipulate them.  It stands to reason that if a planet is -alive- that it may option use of mechanics such as time/space manipulation.

This does not cover every variable of the plot, but I believe it is a strong basis for what Kato believes.  We know that he wrote some parts of Xenogears, and there are a number of similarities between Deus/Omega and Lavos.  The literal specifics are different, but the inception and goals are strongly similar.

If you want me to elaborate further, I can, but I think you all can see my position.

Thought

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 10:57:34 am »
At the end of Chrono Trigger you discovered that Lavos' agenda was simply to take in all the DNA from all of the inhabitants of the planet, and that terror was expressed that all creatures had been raised like cattle.

One shouldn't mistake "take" with "control." At least in the retranslation of CT, this is made out to be a passive occurrence:

Quote from: Robo
I! I canNOT believe it...!   
It HAS the genes of all living creatures since   
its birth on this planet!

Quote from: Marle
H, human form...
It, it, don't tell me...
It couldn't be armed with the powers of
every living thing on this planet...?

That's it! Ever since it fell in Primeval times, it's
been under us, absorbing all the living things
on this planet the whole time...!!

Quote from: Lucca
I, I've figured it out.
Its aims...
It's parasitic on a planet, and picks out and
collects the superior parts of the life forms on
that planet over a long time...

It bears children with those genes on that Death
Mountain, and then on to another planet...

Quote from: Robo
TH, THIS was Lavos's goal...!
TO gain a record of the genes of every living
creature on the planet...
And TO achieve evolution itself!

Quote from: Frog
Wh, what the hell's going on...!?

Hold on, don't tell me it's got the powers of every
living thing on this planet...
That's it! Us, everything that's evolved in every
living thing on this planet...
The bastard's been storing it all up while it
sleeps...!!

Quote from: Frog
For the sake of a bastard like you...!
That's NOT why we're living!!

If Lavos is absorbing the "evolving components" of every creature on the planet, then the FF should be concerned with more than just Humans, but curiously it seems that humans are the only ones "corrupted" by Lavos, as per CC:

Quote from: Ghost in Chronopolis
The life-forms on this planet
developed from single-celled
microorganisms to protozoans...
Then from fish to amphibians...
from reptiles to mammals...
and eventually to humans.
Beginning with a cerebral
neocortex, which only
exists in higher mammals...
The anthropod brain enlarged
at an accelerating pace until it
became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the
abnormal development of the
human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos?
That would mean that humans are
really a heterogeneous life-form,
or '"foreign matter,"' as far as
the planet is concerned.
Humans are a sudden mutation
caused by the contact with
Lavos -- an alien life-form that
fell to this planet from space.
That is why humans are,
biologically speaking,
unbalanced and half-finished.
Internally inconsistent and
disconnected, the human
existence is plagued by
contradictions.
An incomplete species,
torn between love and hatred,
whose very being is self-
contradictory.
From the planet's viewpoint,
humans are just destroyers
and a cursed, yet perhaps
pathetic, blight on the world.

Lavos absorbed the DNA of all life on Earth; if the FF was the tool through which this was done, and if the FF was responsible for Human evolution specifically (which CC does strongly imply), then why aren't other species on earth equally corrupted?

The Secret Skeleton

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Re: The Passion of the Lavos: Reconsidering the Frozen Flame
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 03:57:30 pm »
Maybe they are, they just lack similar intelligence.  Maybe that is where the mystics came from, evolutionary dead-ends.  Humans very likely represented the most potential.  From a thematic aspect this would make more sense than a scientific one.