Author Topic: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet  (Read 3324 times)

curufeanor

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Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« on: June 21, 2008, 11:35:18 am »
Here's a very simple, beautiful, and concise theory to explain the strange relationship between Magus and the Masamune.  I posted about this years ago and it failed to gain traction, then I was reminded about it just recently when playing through CT in the original Japanese.  The original Japanese has a very unexpected difference which lends strong support to the theory.

The Problem

Magus has a weakness to the Masamune which is never explained.  Why is Magus weak to the Masamune?!?!?!?

Background

Question: What do these three artifacts have in common?  1.  The Masamune, 2. The Mammon Machine, 3. Schala's/Marle's pendant?

Answer:  They're all made of Dreamstone.  In fact, it's exactly this relation that causes the Mammon Machine to be weak against the Masamune.  The Mammon Machine is weak against the Masamune because they're made of the same mysterious red rock.  Just like you use a diamond to cut another diamond, you use Dreamstone to cut Dreamstone.

The Simple, Beautiful, and Concise Theory

Magus is weak to the Masamune for the exact same reason that the Mammon Machine is weak to to the Masamune.

The Assumption and the Explanation

Everything else in this report is based on the words of the characters of Chrono Trigger; to explain the Theory, we need to make just a single implicit assumption which the game doesn't explicitly deal with.  The assumption:  Magus's "Amulet" is also made of Dreamstone.  This isn't a big stretch at all: afterall, it stands to reason it would be similar to Schala's Pendant.

When Frog beats Magus in 600 AD, Magus says:  "What did you do to the Masamune?!"  The answer:  Frog's pals got Melchoir to add a giant-ass new hunk of pure Dreamstone!

The Amulet protects Magus.  As far as in-game mechanics go, it protects him from status ailments.  It's much more than that, though.  We witness the intimate moment when Schala gives Janus the Amulet, and she says it will keep him safe.  Obviously, story-wise the Amulet is far more important than as a mere B-rate accessory.

When Magus is attacked with the Masamune, a reaction takes place similar to the Mammon-Masamune Reaction.  Thus, Magus's "weakness" is not really a weakness at all, but rather a niche in his protection.

Now, the additional evidence I found in the Japanese version:  I was surprised to see that the Amulet accessory has a drastically different name in the Japanese version.  It was probably only changed because the original name would be way too long in English.  Bearing in mind that Schala's Japanese name is Sara, the Amulet's true name:
サラのおまもり
sara no omamori
Schala's Sacred Protection

The only thing still unexplained is the Hero Medal.  I see two possibilities for the Hero Medal.  One is that Melchoir created it and it has survived from Zeal.  It would make for a nice "trilogy" of related neckwear:  the Pendant, the Amulet, and the Medal.  The other possibility is that it's native to the middle ages and its connections with the Masamune are urban legend.  I tend to favor the latter, just because everything else blends so beautiful into the larger overall story, while the Medal comes way out of left field and has no connection to any of the game outside the "Tata and the Frog" chapter.  It would be interesting to hear what others say about the Hero's Medal.

ONE LAST THING....

In formulating theories, it's important to give a big grain of salt to battle details.  Otherwise you're forced to come to some very weird conclusions.  Like:  1.  Yakra is weak compared to common monsters in Magus's Castle.  2.  The Ocean Palace has a whole lot of giant iron orbs above the Golem Twins room.  3.  The elevators in Ocean Palace and Black Oman can descend arbitrarily long distances (if you let the battles drag on).  And so on.  I say this because one possible attack on my theory would be:  "But the effects of Masamune in the Magus fight don't line up perfectly with the stats of the Amulet!  It lowers his magic defense, not his status defense!"  Well, by that logic the GreenDream is broken since it won't save Crono in the Ocean Palace.  It's just an example of taking in-fight data with a grain of salt.

V_Translanka

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2008, 05:40:58 pm »
I think the connection is a lot simpler than all of that: Magus is a magical powerhouse (rivaling even Schala). The Masamune absorbs magical energy absorbed by the Mammon Machine. So the Masamune also drains Magus' Magical defenses. The connections are MAGIC.

Although it may also have something to do w/the fact that Magus at that time can cast Magical barriers. Although mechanics-wise, they don't boost his M. Def, technically they do increase his defenses against certain Magics...I mention this at all because I don't think the Masamune effects Magus in the same way if you use it against him in the North Cape fight (but I may be wrong, I don't think I had it equipped when I ever tried to fight him with Frog)...

curufeanor

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 12:30:28 am »
I think the connection is a lot simpler than all of that: Magus is a magical powerhouse (rivaling even Schala). The Masamune absorbs magical energy absorbed by the Mammon Machine. So the Masamune also drains Magus' Magical defenses. The connections are MAGIC.

Although it may also have something to do w/the fact that Magus at that time can cast Magical barriers. Although mechanics-wise, they don't boost his M. Def, technically they do increase his defenses against certain Magics...I mention this at all because I don't think the Masamune effects Magus in the same way if you use it against him in the North Cape fight (but I may be wrong, I don't think I had it equipped when I ever tried to fight him with Frog)...
If this were the case, the sword would have similar effects on Spekkio, Dalton, Queen Zeal, Flea, etc.  The only other enemy specifically effected is Mammon Machine, which reinforces the theory.

I also don't know whether Masamune does anything in MagusFight2.  I think most people don't, cuz at that point the Masamune is several sword generations obsolete, until it gets powered up at Cyrus's tomb, which can't be done by that point in the game...  (Masamune power up isn't even preserved over New Game+)

One thing that's also worth mentioning is that storywise, Magus is stronger in his castle than at North Cape, because before North Cape he got drained by Lavos.  It's possible Lavos also drained power from Schala's Sacred Protection.

Next time I'm playing and I'm at that point, I'll throw the wimpy Masamune on Frog and give it a shot.  Or maybe someone else has a save file there and can give it a go :)

V_Translanka

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 03:04:39 am »
Well, perhaps Magus is simply more powerful Magically then them...And no physical attacks work against Spekkio, so I don't think the comparison can be made there...

We know that his Magic is drained, so Occam's Razor it...why assume that it also drained something else?

curufeanor

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 03:52:11 am »
There are generic anti-magic weapons in the game, like the Demon Edge.  And they specifically say they're strong against magic enemies.  As for the Masamune, it's specifically said that it's strong against dreamstone.  It also happens to be strong against Magus, and Magus happens to be using an amulet that protects him.  Also the Masamune has no special properties against any other magic enemies, except Mammon Machine.  Occam's Razor says that the best explanation is that the Amulet is dreamstone and that's why Magus is weak to the Masamune.  I like your idea and it would be simpler, the only thing is it doesn't work, the Masamune is *not* strong against generic magic enemies, it's only strong against enemies involving dreamstone (of which there are only 2).  If Magus was afraid of Masamune just for generic anti-magic properties, he'd be equally afraid of Demon Edge.

Occam's razor perfectly supports my claim.  Masamune is strong vs. Dreamstone (fact).  Masamune is strong vs. Magus (fact).  Masamune isn't specifically strong against anything else, except M.Machine (fact).  M.Machine is dreamstone (fact).  Nothing else is specifically, storyline/cutscene-wise strong against Magus (fact).  Magus is protected by an Amulet from Schala (fact).  The only special assumption I make is that that amulet is Dreamstone, and this is a pretty weak assumption.  All the evidence points conclusively that:  Magus is weak against Masamune because he's protected by a dreamstone Amulet.  That's pretty simple, it has the bonus of fitting very nicely with the overall game storyline, and it doesn't contradict anything else.

It's a pretty good theory  :)

V_Translanka

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 05:04:55 am »
Quote
the Masamune is *not* strong against generic magic enemies, it's only strong against enemies involving dreamstone (of which there are only 2).  If Magus was afraid of Masamune just for generic anti-magic properties, he'd be equally afraid of Demon Edge.

Well, yeah, but Magus isn't a 'generic magic enemy', is he?

It seems like someone would have mentioned if the Gurus made anything else out of Dreamstone, though...We're told that they made the Mammon Machine, the Red Knife & the Pendant...why would we not be told that the Amulet was also made of Dreamstone?

I think something important to note is how the Masamune seemingly changes how it works willy-nilly, as expressly seen in Cross...but also, once Frog gets over his issues, it also changes physically. Frog shares quite a strong emotional bond to Magus because of their history...I think that comes into play with how the Masamune works against Magus.

Dark Serge

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2008, 03:33:15 pm »
Why would Magus fear the Masamune? He doesn't get defeated by it in Cyrus' hand, and he doesn't seem to be afraid of it in Glenn's hand. Actually, he taunts Glenn to use it on him.

V_Translanka

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2008, 05:10:47 pm »
Well, I'm not exactly sure what curufeanor meant by that either...But one point is that we don't know if Cyrus used it against Magus at all, really. For all we know he only just unsheathed it & never even had a chance to use it against him...*shrugs*

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 11:56:47 am »
I have to agree with curufeanor here. Schala's a member of the royal family, I'm sure she could get her hands on some dreamstone and turn it into an amulet with magical protection. This would actually make sense, as dreamstone seems to have some magical properties. (Thus, why Zeal would use it in the Mammon Machine...) Occam's razor seems to support the theory. Curufeanor makes some very good points.

And yes, Magus is a generic magic enemy as far as the game is concerned, I'm sure... He probably does fear weapons like Demon Edge somewhat, but, it's actually likely that the amulet would protect him from their anti-magic  effects! A diamond shield would protect you from a steel sword, but a diamond sword? I don't think so. Thus why he'd fear a dreamstone sword more than an anti-magic sword. That is just my assumption, however.

I support curufeanor here, sorry V. All of you are putting up good arguments, though.

V_Translanka

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 03:52:01 pm »
I say that it's because of Frog's ties to Magus. We know that the sword is effected by it's wielder. It's not the weapon, but how you use it. Mind over matter. And then all of the evidence in Cross as well. Frog has a personal grudge against Magus, so the Masamune acts accordingly by lowering his M. Def.

I don't see how Occam's Razor supports evidence we aren't given or shown more than what we do know to be true.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 04:55:36 pm »
It's true that the Masamune has a connection to Glenn, and Glenn hates Magus, but it is also true that the Masamune is made of dreamstone, which has magical properties and that Zeal had access to. What better material to make a magical protective amulet from than dreamstone? We know for a fact that it also affects the Mammon Machine, which we know has dreamstone, yet Glenn does not have powerful negative emotions towards. (At least not to the same degree as with Magus) Thus, we can draw the conclusion that dreamstone can counteract dreamstone, like how diamond can cut diamond.

And curufeanor is assuming very little here, so why wouldn't Occam's razor support the theory? Pretty much the only thing he's assuming is that Schala's Sacred Protection is made from dreamstone, and that isn't very far-fetched. The royal family clearly has access to dreamstone, as evident with the Mammon Machine.

I imagine Glenn's feelings could very well be a factor, but I think this theory is important to take into consideration as well.

V_Translanka

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 05:40:06 pm »
Yeah, but the effects against the Mammon Machine are also not the same as those against Magus...The Masamune's original creation was for the destruction of the Mammon Machine, as the Red Knife. Its very existence is to counter the Mammon Machine. And we also are given no information that would lead us to believe that Dreamstone negates status effects at all...The Masamune doesn't.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 05:42:42 pm »
Hm, I suppose so. I'm thinking they're both factors. Does curufeanor have anything to say on this?

killercactus

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 03:17:10 pm »
I like this theory and believe it has some merit, but I will point out that Magus can wear the Ruby Vest all he wants without anything happening to his magic defense.  I believe that I remember the Ruby Vest being made in 65000000 BC out of Dreamstone.  Therefore, if Magus was weak against Dreamstone, would the Ruby Vest not adversely affect him?

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 10:00:16 pm »
No, curufeanor says that it's not that he is weak against dreamstone, it's that dreamstone is weak against dreamstone.

Although, Occam's Razor says that V is right, as his is simpler. Sorry curufeanor! And it is worthy to note that the Masamune's purpose was to destroy the Mammon Machine. So it's difficult to tell if the effects are dreamstone vs. dreamstone or Masamune vs. Mammon Machine.

However, what if curufeanor's theory is true? (dreamstone is weak to dreamstone) What better way to destroy the Mammon Machine than to create a weapon that could counteract its main component, dreamstone? Though the sword does have a mind of its own, as evident with its "soul", Masa and Mune, and its upgrade when you do the Cyrus sidequest. So I imagine that dreamstone does affect other dreamstone, BUT the reason there's a different effect on Magus is that Glenn's emotions are projected into the blade, and Masa&Mune help him by lowering Magus's Magic Defense. Perhaps the dreamstone effect gives them an opening to do this, though.