Author Topic: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?  (Read 3201 times)

OverlordMikey

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A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« on: June 06, 2008, 01:11:24 am »
Remove your personal Lavos feelings first then read on.

I was thinking, perhaps our "friend" Lavos isn't all s/he seems. I mean so many children, Lavos may reproduce asexually, perhaps it is the last female of its species, it just a good mother. It needed to go somewhere to gather a lot of energy for the spawns. It dug it's way into our world. So it began. Lavos cared for it's children, but soon humans began messing with it and Lavos decide to destroy them. It used Queen Zeal to this end then finally was enraged and popped up from the ground and killed the pests who bothered it. Tired it returned but kept Zeal as a way of protecting it's self using the black omen. (Originally it didn't need this of course as it didn't have pesky time travelers bothering it and Zeal might not have gone down with the Palace. Of course it then destroys the world and let's it's baby's go to space to find there own way. "Fairwell mother wishes you well." Lavos dies....It's known the after a certain point A children leave the nest. The spawns you do fight are just trying to perserve there existence and/or just runts of sorts who didn't manage to get off the planet yet.

As the it merge with "-------" into the Time Devourer Lavos is full of hate....why? Because s/he was defeated and it's children's existence erased, possibly ending the species....I'd be pi**ed to!

Just saying that maybe Lavos' choices were a maternal/paternail instinct, the desire to keep the species going. and protect it's children*. Who knows what's in the universe! There could be creatures the eat Lavos' species for all we know....

*Before you say anything Lavos most likely didn't think of us as it's children rather or not it help make us what we are.

Just saying it's a diffrent way of looking at it. Sorta a what if...survival of a species fits in Crono Trigger and Cross.

You may now return back to your original personal issues with Lavos, thank you.

V_Translanka

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2008, 02:33:11 am »
Um, well, it's not a new standpoint on Lavos...In fact, you might want to check out the old Compendium article called The Ethics of Lavos...You might want to check out the other article Lavos - Points of Interest as well...although there are apparently some issues with the theory of Lavos' PD...*shrugs*

Boo the Gentleman Caller

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2008, 10:08:48 pm »
Looking at Lavos as a creature of animalistic instincts, that makes sense.  I just read those theorems for the first time.]

Now for inner assessment.

Ekul

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2008, 01:06:59 am »
I suppose it's possible, but I'm going to pull the over-analysis card on this one. The creators never gave any indication that Lavos was anything but evil and parasitic. Occams razor suggest that if there's a simpler suggestion (that Lavos is evil), that's probably it.

However that's not to say it's impossible, I just don't think it's at all canon.

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 09:37:11 pm »
I don't know if you can pull Occam's Razor on this kind of theory though...It's not like it's grasping at straws or anything...We never "really" talk to Lavos, so all of the theorized information we get that it's evil are secondhand from people it screws over. We're theorizing reaction/motivation there, really...and I don't see how one theory is any more or less simple than the other...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 09:39:17 pm by V_Translanka »

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 03:31:09 pm »
It is definitely open to interpretation. I have the feeling that he's supposed to be evil, but I doubt the developers thought this far. Or perhaps they did? Maybe they wanted it to be open-ended. A lot of the things in the Chrono series are. (Though some may be due to the developers overlooking certain things, it's still open-ended...) I like the idea that Lavos is a "varelse", that he's on a completely different plane of thought. We are like squares trying to perceive the depth of a cube. His thought process is so different than ours, so that's why we never hear him talk.

Curiously, we never hear the planet (the Entity; I like calling her Gaia) "speak" either. I have the feeling that Lavos and the planet are on the same plane of thought. (a.k.a. tons of times higher than ours. :p) This leads me to support the idea that Lavos is another "Entity" that has "gone bad", as someone suggested. It now only wishes to be a parasite that consumes the DNA of all planets, and lay them to ruins. It would explain why it's so powerful, and how the planet cannot fight it. She probably tried, but it was stronger.

Or something. I have no clue. Since Lavos is varelse, and we cannot communicate with it, we cannot see its higher motives. It's an interesting theory that Overlord proposed, but Lavos is definitely sentient, and I do feel that it is consciously making a choice to hurt the planet, a being I feel is probably on the same plane of sentience as Lavos. But, like I said, we can't communicate with him, so it's all open to interpretation.

My standing is that Lavos is evil, simple as that. But that's not to say there are other plausible theories floating around there.

P.S. Yeah, Occam's Razor can't really help us on this one, so that sucks. :( A word from the developers would be helpful, but I think that it's quite possible that it's meant to be open-ended, so they couldn't help in that case. But...

ONSLAUGHT

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 03:57:22 pm »
It is rather unrealistic that someone or something has the intention of being evil or doing evil things and so I think Lavos is just as Mikey suggests going by it's own usual ways in order to keep it's species alive. It just so happens that one of the planets Lavos has landed onhas beings on it already and so instantly it is judged as being evil for eating something else on the food chain. It's like saying a cheetah is pure evil for attacking a gazelle and we need to sick a bunch of warriors on the Cheetah. That's how Lavos is judged, except by Zeal and Dalton whom just see Lavos for his aura of raw power. Which also makes me believe just as Draggy in CC at first believes the team that hatches him to be his parents, perhaps when Lavos first arose back in 12000 BC it assumed Queen Zeal to be it's mother which would explain why it followed all of her commands. Which in a way would just make Lavos a simple animal following the food chain, just trying to survive.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 04:13:03 pm »
Huh? No, Lavos controlled Zeal, not vice-versa. (Which is why I think he's consciously being evil... Try reading the "Lavos and Duality" thread, (It's something along those lines, I can't remember the exact title) it may shed some light) But still, like I said, there are a lot of theories going around. If Lavos is sentient, though, his morality is put into question.

ONSLAUGHT

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 05:48:57 pm »
I just got through that whole bit of Zeal and Lavos at the ocean palace and noticed that sharp spiny attack that it has where it launches those whirlwind looking things. I'm thinking when Lavos fires off all those blasts, which can also be seen it rises, that's Lavos firing off it's children or the Lavos Spawns. Perhaps it was pregnant and as most animals do while pregnant, travel long distances, and hide from their enemies. So Lavos burrowed deep into the earth after flying through space and when it was ready to birth it's children, it rose. Zeal and Magus summoning it as well was just unexpected awakening, humans waking it up. Why else is it that even after Lavos rises, it doesn't go on with destroying the planet, it just stops and there are so many Lavos Spawn on Death Peak?

OverlordMikey

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 07:01:54 pm »
I just got through that whole bit of Zeal and Lavos at the ocean palace and noticed that sharp spiny attack that it has where it launches those whirlwind looking things. I'm thinking when Lavos fires off all those blasts, which can also be seen it rises, that's Lavos firing off it's children or the Lavos Spawns. Perhaps it was pregnant and as most animals do while pregnant, travel long distances, and hide from their enemies. So Lavos burrowed deep into the earth after flying through space and when it was ready to birth it's children, it rose. Zeal and Magus summoning it as well was just unexpected awakening, humans waking it up. Why else is it that even after Lavos rises, it doesn't go on with destroying the planet, it just stops and there are so many Lavos Spawn on Death Peak?

I like to think that Lavos is intellegent, but our feelings never really came into our thoughts (it did grant Queen Zeal a sorta imortallity apon it's final awakening as taht was their deal, If she/he were evil then she/he would have just got rid of the Black omen with the rest of the planet).
I think the destruction of 1999AD was mearly something that happens as Lavos gives birth....the Planets energy is something needed inorder to essure the children are born healthy (Picture an egg type thing). Lavos gathers DNA inorder to ensure that the children become better the Lavos was (as bearing children without a mate doesn't allow for much genetic change) Lavos Spawn are just baby Lavos who didn't make it into outer space off the bat, and will attempt to launch later. Death Peak is wear lves rose from..then died after having children! (Some insects and aracnids die after give birth for a varitey of reasons....at least from what I saw on TV once...I'm not an expert) An Lavos has no real Grudge with humans! Zeal noticed Lavos as a power source, they used it...so it used them back! Magus would have died if not for your characters! In the end the real threat was Lavos would give birth in 1999AD and thus in the process kill the human race. (The Planet was just remembering what happend, it would have recovered, the pain was just so great it was like dieing!) Glad someone pretty much agrees

Huh? No, Lavos controlled Zeal, not vice-versa. (Which is why I think he's consciously being evil... Try reading the "Lavos and Duality" thread, (It's something along those lines, I can't remember the exact title) it may shed some light) But still, like I said, there are a lot of theories going around. If Lavos is sentient, though, his morality is put into question.

Also brought up, if Lavos is sentient doesn't mean he thinks like us! Lavos mearly attacks when attacked untill 1999AD. In our opinion EVIL in her/his opinion...annoying but interetsing flys! Chrono got in his way as well.. Lavos never used anyone out of pure amusment or something.

I mean Magus does the same thing as Lavos in taht way and everyone justifies him.

Magus- Revenge
Lavos- The Children
=
Lavos has better justification!

Infact Chrono and group has nice justification to (future of humanity) but there justification isn't what this is about.

ONSLAUGHT

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 09:10:23 pm »
I like to think that Lavos is intellegent, but our feelings never really came into our thoughts (it did grant Queen Zeal a sorta imortallity apon it's final awakening as taht was their deal, If she/he were evil then she/he would have just got rid of the Black omen with the rest of the planet).
I think the destruction of 1999AD was mearly something that happens as Lavos gives birth....the Planets energy is something needed inorder to essure the children are born healthy (Picture an egg type thing). Lavos gathers DNA inorder to ensure that the children become better the Lavos was (as bearing children without a mate doesn't allow for much genetic change) Lavos Spawn are just baby Lavos who didn't make it into outer space off the bat, and will attempt to launch later. Death Peak is wear lves rose from..then died after having children! (Some insects and aracnids die after give birth for a varitey of reasons....at least from what I saw on TV once...I'm not an expert) An Lavos has no real Grudge with humans! Zeal noticed Lavos as a power source, they used it...so it used them back! Magus would have died if not for your characters! In the end the real threat was Lavos would give birth in 1999AD and thus in the process kill the human race. (The Planet was just remembering what happend, it would have recovered, the pain was just so great it was like dieing!) Glad someone pretty much agrees

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say, it's just giving birth and humans are getting in the way! I just needed it summed up to think of how to say it in lamest terms.

Chocobo_Fan

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 09:34:20 pm »
Like I said, there are many different theories, I just happen to believe in a more simplistic one. :/ And I didn't exactly say that if he was sentient, that meant he was EVIL, I just said his morality would be put into question. Sort of like being put on trial. We can never know for sure, though, since Lavos is varelse. That's something very unique and interesting about him. He/She/It might just want to look after its children, or it might be totally evil. Can we tell for certain? The planet possibly could communicate with it, maybe, (And it's a big maybe) but our puny human minds cannot possibly hope to grasp Lavos's intentions or mindset.

Like I said, we might as well be squares trying to perceive the depth of a cube. It is impossible.

So it's pretty hard to discuss... :/ These are all very big assumptions we're making, since we never talk to Lavos in-game. Hm. Your theories are quite interesting and out-of-the-box thinking, though. That's a good thing to do, so keep doing it! ;) It will doubtlessly help you.

OverlordMikey

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2008, 12:00:55 am »
Like I said, there are many different theories, I just happen to believe in a more simplistic one. :/ And I didn't exactly say that if he was sentient, that meant he was EVIL, I just said his morality would be put into question. Sort of like being put on trial. We can never know for sure, though, since Lavos is varelse. That's something very unique and interesting about him. He/She/It might just want to look after its children, or it might be totally evil. Can we tell for certain? The planet possibly could communicate with it, maybe, (And it's a big maybe) but our puny human minds cannot possibly hope to grasp Lavos's intentions or mindset.

Like I said, we might as well be squares trying to perceive the depth of a cube. It is impossible.

So it's pretty hard to discuss... :/ These are all very big assumptions we're making, since we never talk to Lavos in-game. Hm. Your theories are quite interesting and out-of-the-box thinking, though. That's a good thing to do, so keep doing it! ;) It will doubtlessly help you.

I understand what your saying with the fact that we can't speak to Lavos, but think about it that is the very reason we can't say he's EVIL (of course we can't say it's GOOD either.)

Lavos is EVIL, but only in our human opinion, because he will destroy life as we know it (I'd like to note he devistates the human race...not destroys it....)
I don't believe anyone or anything is really evil. Except Hitler, but that's my opinion! However if you asked around you would find someone or even may how disagree. Evil is an opinion, not a state of mind!

It is rather unrealistic that someone or something has the intention of being evil or doing evil things

This is ver important. NOTHING thinks it's evil! Anyone we look at throughout history who we would say is evil will not agree with us.
Of course Lavos has more justification for his/her destruction in that he/she/it is giveing birth, not trying to take over the world or get revenge or something like that...GIVEING BIRTH! I think Lavos is intellegent, yes. Lavos evil, I don't think so. Lavos doing bad things, yes. Reason...self-defense. Then again as you said we can't speak to Lavos so we don't know fo certain, but I'd like to think Lavos...no everything is more 3-demensaional then Good and Bad (If the logic you use is true the Cross proves that the Planet is infact evil because it doesn't like us either because we hurt it, and same with the Reptites! We everything that hurts Humanity is evil!)

Kebrel

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2008, 12:03:16 am »
Quote
This is very important. NOTHING thinks it's evil! Anyone we look at throughout history who we would say is evil will not agree with us.
V thinks he is evil...

V_Translanka

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2008, 03:17:16 am »
He's not really debating Lavos' ethics so much as morality as a whole. He's not asking 'Is Lavos evil?' but 'What is evil?'...