Author Topic: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?  (Read 3224 times)

V_Translanka

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2008, 07:04:19 pm »
I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".

OverlordMikey

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2008, 07:55:04 pm »
I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".

That could be part of the act. I mean maybe it just happens when it gives birth. Oh course the only way to know would be to understand how it gives birth. Like I said Lavos can be depicted as evil by us because he harms us. It would be like being attacked by an animal then claim that animal is evil because it doesn't care about you (of course Lavos is much more intellegent, but the idea still works)

Either way it's actions towards us were evil in our minds, but I highly doubt Lavos was trying to be evil or cruel.

Temporal Knight

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2008, 10:32:01 pm »
Evil. Such a strong word in some cases. I can discuss this forever! *chuckles*

But Evil, much like the human aspects of Time, is only a persception of a being. One who views something as Evil is only viewing it in their perspective. What is Evil to one, might not be considered Evil to another. Of course, in most cases, Evil is harmful is some way, but on rare occassions is is either a misunderstanding or a helpful cause to the enviroment, Time, History, or other such thing. Of course, such Good Evils are rarely documented, so thus they are not part of History. Only the Evil Evils are documented, because they influence us the most.

Take Lavos for instance. If Lavos were meerly reproducing, it was doing Evil with good intention for itself with bad results for the host planet. If Lavos meant to destroy the planet by some diabolical plot (the fact that it is very intelligent), then it would commiting a Evil action with Evil intention for itself or possibly some other higher aspect with bad results for the host planet.

Either way you look at it, both intentions are bad in any way. For us that is.

ChaosIX

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2008, 06:57:15 pm »
Is it just me, or does it just seem like Lavos....Didn't intentionally end up on earth? Seriously, how much control would one have flying through space without the use of a rocket or something? My best guess is that the planet that it was previously on blew up, and it was on a random collision course with earth. So it's not like it intentionally CHOSE earth as a new place to rest and respawn. It just latched on and started doing what overgrown... parasites do.  :lol:
But the real credable reason that Lavos had to be stopped was because, well, humans fight to survive too. So both creatures really aren't all that different.

I mean, who's to say that humans didn't fall from space from a rock and just developed overtime either? for all we know, humans and lavos could be the same type of beings; parasites.

Just a thought.

V_Translanka

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2008, 11:08:12 pm »
Just random? idk about that...it seems that in order to spawn properly that Lavos needed a planet with life on it...and we're told that Lavos' spawn are going to repeat the process...Do you mean to think that Lavos will simply blow up the planet somehow & fling his spawn randomly throughout the cosmos, hoping that they just might end up landing on a planet with life? After all of that time? Besides, I'm fairly sure Lavos is powerful enough to direct itself through space.

Eske

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2008, 03:09:13 pm »
I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".

I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak.  I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet.  Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables.  Its just a preventative measure.

mikeb123

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2008, 10:19:01 pm »
I think that Lavos intentionally ended up on earth, as Azala seemed to know it was going to fall. Though just because it used Queen Zeal as a puppet doesn' suggest that it's evil. The kingdom of Zeal used it's power, so it used her to pull
the kingdom over the edge.

chrono eric

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2008, 10:26:43 pm »
I think that Lavos intentionally ended up on earth, as Azala seemed to know it was going to fall.

Uh yeah...because a giant friggin' red object was in the sky getting closer and closer each day  :D. It doesn't necessarily mean Lavos ended up there intentionally, however.

But logically speaking, Lavos would have to be able to direct where it wanted to go. Reproduction just wouldn't be that efficient otherwise.

I always thought a cool (although completely made up by myself) possibility was that time travel technically equals space travel if you want it to. Think about it. If you were to really time travel to even 10 years in the past to relatively the same point in space (universal expansion notwithstanding), you wouldn't end up on earth but somewhere out in space. The earth moves around the sun and the sun orbits the center of the galaxy and the galaxy is speeding through the universe at an enormous rate. Since time and space are necessarily equivalent time travel could take you lightyears away. Since Lavos clearly has control over time, I always thought that this was a plausible way for him to travel through space in a short period of time and find planets containing life.

V_Translanka

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2008, 01:12:09 am »
Yeah, that's what bugs me about most instances of time travel in literature (or whatever), unless they say that their machine/device/portal defies time and space...in Chrono Trigger, though it seems as though time travel is related in some way to the life force of the planet (and/or the beings of the planet).

ubermetroid

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2009, 11:30:03 am »
I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak.  I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet.  Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables.  Its just a preventative measure.

I will agree with you.  When Lavos destroyed things in 1999 it was just to ensure that the locals would not harm its offspring.  Also,  I do  not see Lavos as evil, but just as an animal doing what it needs to survive.  The Entity is doing the same thing during the game.  Opening the gates to allow something the possibility to destroy Lavos.

Eske

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2009, 11:48:04 pm »
I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak.  I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet.  Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables.  Its just a preventative measure.

I will agree with you.  When Lavos destroyed things in 1999 it was just to ensure that the locals would not harm its offspring.  Also,  I do  not see Lavos as evil, but just as an animal doing what it needs to survive.  The Entity is doing the same thing during the game.  Opening the gates to allow something the possibility to destroy Lavos.

I would give the Entity more credit though.  During the Fiona forest scene Lucca expresses that she regrets a memory she'd rather not talk about.   The Entity also recalls this memory, sympathizes with her, and gives her an opportunity to change it.    I would say that the Entity and Lavos are somewhat like us:  instinctual with that "something" extra.     The Entity's case for intellect can be argued with the example I used but what about Lavos?    I guess it depends on your perception - did Lavos ever manipulate Zeal for some purpose, or was it a one-way parasitic connection to harvest his power?     

Lavos did let them get really close...

OverlordMikey

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2009, 10:19:15 pm »
I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak.  I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet.  Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables.  Its just a preventative measure.

I will agree with you.  When Lavos destroyed things in 1999 it was just to ensure that the locals would not harm its offspring.  Also,  I do  not see Lavos as evil, but just as an animal doing what it needs to survive.  The Entity is doing the same thing during the game.  Opening the gates to allow something the possibility to destroy Lavos.

I would give the Entity more credit though.  During the Fiona forest scene Lucca expresses that she regrets a memory she'd rather not talk about.   The Entity also recalls this memory, sympathizes with her, and gives her an opportunity to change it.    I would say that the Entity and Lavos are somewhat like us:  instinctual with that "something" extra.     The Entity's case for intellect can be argued with the example I used but what about Lavos?    I guess it depends on your perception - did Lavos ever manipulate Zeal for some purpose, or was it a one-way parasitic connection to harvest his power?     

Lavos did let them get really close...

(Wow it's been awhile since I posted.)

Hmmmmm The Entity gave Lucca a chance to save her mother out of sympathy maybe......Lavos gave Queen Zeal Immortality (technically....as long as no one killed her she didn't age) as s/he promised her. Lavos is obviously capable of understanding things. The question is if it was natural for a human to kill someone inorder to give birth then would that be evil. It's quite possible that the rain of fire is just part of the process. Pay attention! It's nature! Lavos vs the Planet! One must die (or at teh very least suffer....whiney planet) in order for the other to live! It's tragic but true, they are playing there natural roles...they just happen to be alot more...powerful then us. I don't think good and evil crossed either of them in this case.
I mean sometime it seems like people think Lavos was targeting this planet just to make us angry or a personal reason (other then feeding, giving birth, and dying). Lavos isn't gonna say "Oh I should pass that planet cause the people might get upset" One healthy planet is the same as another. People don't say "I don't want this lot of land, I might upset the ants!"

Zergplex

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2009, 11:09:18 pm »
I think it really comes down to if Lavos is a higher life form mentally or if he runs on instincts as some people believe. If he is an animal following his reproductive instincts then no, he is not evil in that he doesn't have the mental function to understand the difference between good and evil.

If he IS sentient I would argue committing genocide of another intelligent species (and he is aware of our intelligence, due to his corruption of Queen Zeal) for it's own ends is evil. Doing it as a 'precautionary measure' to prevent harm to it's offspring is akin to me carpet bombing everything within a 50 mile radius of my house just in case a wild dog might exist to hurt my child. But I wouldn't be doing it to combat wild dogs, I'd be doing it to combat another sentient species with self-awareness.

The separate species argument never held up with me, if we traveled to another planet and found another species at their equivalent of the middle ages and we started killing them since it didn't matter, they 'arn't human' I would definitely call that an evil act on our part. Heck maybe we needed the planet to settle on or we would die, murdering the sentient lifeform simply for that reason is intolerable. There are other methods to try before genocide, a whole mess of them.

People throw around these terms that Lavos's mental state is either so far higher then ours as to be incomprehensible, or so low as to be an animal running entirely on instinct. I believe those arguments are merely theories which, in many cases, lack substance and mainly are used just to justify Lavos's actions.

Can't anyone simply be evil anymore?

HyperNerd

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2009, 11:38:42 pm »
Villians in most RPG's are either
Evil because they want revenge, Evil because they used to be good, and turned evil for no apparent reason, Evil because they are crazy(Sephiroth), or just plain evil(Kefka.).

Acacia Sgt

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Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2009, 12:25:51 am »
Don't forget:

Evil, because although they are actually doing something good, they are the villains for doing it through evil acts.